the book of moro

vampire · 17th December 2009, 05:07 PM

the book of moro
finaly today the book came in ,oh happy the famous book
writen by the great R.CATO
with all the info and pictures for the small and starting collectors
well afther sometime ............................................
i said boy o boy this is big disapointment
maybe i did expected to much ,but i try to resell it quikly
is it a lemon ???????????
well it give little
and if this is the only book ,it is time for a better
also having many great books over indonesian kris
butt what the hell,mine advice over this cato book
read it before you buy
i wish all nice days a good new year
the vampire

Rick · 17th December 2009, 05:37 PM

You do realise that this is the first book ever written on the subject, correct ?

You have to dig for more information on your own .

I suggest you start by entering the words moro kris into our search function .
Please get back to us when you have finished reading .

There is more, deeper information to be found here than in Cato's groundbreaking effort .

vampire · 17th December 2009, 06:19 PM

dear rick
i know this is the first book on this topic
but i have some more books on weapons yes ????????????????
and before you start to tell me what i must do
you find out more about me yes ????????????
this book is not the book ,people say it is yes
and did look into your search function yes again
and the information is nice and up to date
but you and me while never agree over this eh book
and about me do you know that in the library in
good old madrid that is in spain there are writings
over the moro long before this book long before
the philippines where liberated by stars a stripes
here in Holland we have collection that are 300 years
old and that is oke yes
so i made mine steps the last 45 years oke
i did it all for me ,but give me some stripes before
you start to tell what i must do and what i must think
when i did call this writing a lemon oke is not all nice
to call this book a what ever
all i want to say to buyers LOOK READ and than buy or not
but for that money there are other books and better
so rick have a nice christmas and in the comming year i will not
tell you what to and when if you do the same
warm grt jan smit
the vampire

Rick · 17th December 2009, 07:39 PM

It would have been nice to know that you were so well informed on the subject in the first place, no ?

Merry Christmas to you Jan .

David · 17th December 2009, 07:44 PM

Jan, i am not sure why exactly you found the need to reply to Rick's post so defensively and full of anger. Apparently something he said triggered you in some way, but your reply seems just a bit reactionary to me. Nowhere does he tell you what you must do or think. He merely made a friendly suggestion.
On Cato, i certainly agree that this book is not in any way the end all on Moro weapons. It leaves many unanswered question, has holes in it's research and the photos aren't very detailed or well printed for reference. It is, however, to my understanding, the only book (certainly in English) that specifically concentrates on Moro blades. That said it is indeed lacking on many levels, but IMO it is also worth owning for anyone interested in Moro weapons. It is the work that breaks the ground for all discussion that is to follow. Of course Moro swords, or the weapons of any culture, cannot be studied in a vacuum, so it is imperative that we look to many sources of reference to fill in our understanding. Yes, there is much written material on the Moros themselves and these texts do make mention here and there to their weapons, but they do not concentrate on the subject. Cato's book is just a start. Rick suggested that you spend some time in our archives because you are new here, not because he is making assumptions about your level of knowledge or learning. He is not telling you what you "must" do (he never used that word), simply what you can do to further research this subject. These weapons have been a strong and heated subject of conversation in this forum for many years, with the accumulated knowledge of many well versed members adding to our knowledge base and that of Cato. Rick was merely suggesting that you spend some time with our archives if you find the information in Cato lacking because in his opinion (and mine) we have far surpassed Cato with some of the research that has been posted here in our understanding (...and it would take quite some time to sift through all our threads on Moro blades. You say you "looked into" them, but there is no way you could have really studied them as that would literally take many days of reading. A search for "Moro" brings up 500 threads, many of with are a multiple of pages long.) We don't always agree, but that is for you to decide what is correct and what might be mere speculation. There is so much there though and countless examples of fine Moro weapons to look at for reference.
You say that for the money there are better books to be had on the subject. Would you care to name one, because i am unaware of any that concentrate on these weapons specifically. It is certainly past time that another book be written on the subject with updated knowledge and references. We have talked about this many times on this forum and you will no doubt find those discussions if you do indeed research our archives. I hope you do take the time to really look deeply into these archives. I am not telling you what to do, just responding to your post and making a friendly suggestion. I would also suggest that you remove that chip off your shoulder as it really isn't conducive to the spirit of friendly exchange that we attempt to encourge on these forums.

....and a very warm and happy Christmas to you as well Jan.

vampire · 17th December 2009, 08:15 PM

in mine land ,we have a saying
that is like this ,if you play the bal
do not be supriced if some one plays it back
i do give mine opinion over a book that ,many say
buy it is the end
well i do not think so ,mine good right
you seem to share the same opion
mine reaction is simly a reaction on his reaction
if you do not know your counterpart be easy with
your advice ,yes
but i see there is a world of diverence between
rick and jan.
that will be the end of this
for your info i spend time in your memory banks
also spend some time in the books of europe
and if some one can not critiseze a book
without beeing ...............
i wonder if this is the place to be
grt the vampire

ariel · 17th December 2009, 08:43 PM

Moro weapons are not my main area of interest, but they are intriguing and important enough to have a general understanding of them in the "mental database". This was splendidly accomplished by Cato. Inevitably, when more smart and educated people started digging, new facts were uncovered, and the topic became progressively more complex and richly textured.
The chapter on Philippine weapons in the Macao Museum was the next step, but space limitations were severe. Still, I learned more.

I think it is high time for a truly knowledgeable person to sit down and write "The Ultimate Book". I would buy it in a jiffy. The only problem is that such a book will remain " ultimate" for a limited period of time only , and will inevitably become yet another outdated volume :-)
Such is the fate of any and every research book.

Cato was just a very good start, analogous to " See Dick run". Not an Elgood-type treatise, for sure. But without it I, for one, would have never been able to acquire the vocabulary and to learn the alphabet to be able to read and understand more sophisticated arguments on the topic. And for that alone, Cato has my hat tipped off to him.

Bill · 17th December 2009, 08:45 PM

Vampire, I think there would be quite a following of your posts if you can enlighten us on Moro arms. I suspect there is quite a bit of collected information, especially in Spain & the Netherlands. Trouble is, to have a scholar do the research & report.
In reading about the mountain tribes of Luzon, I found the traditions/customs of a particular clan varied in the same group. So with the Moro's, you not only had the different Sultans & groups, but the clans. While Islam & Sultans may have well decreed uniformity into many matters, I suspect that many of the clans still had their own beliefs on many matters such as rituals of warrior groups & talismans.
I suspect Mr. Cato has faults in his book but I also do not definitive proof of any faults. There is a number of posts by different people, who also do not think Mr. Cato reach perfection. As Rick mentioned, this is the first book & will certainly be the foundation for future works. As a future book lacks financial rewards, it may be a long time in coming. As for the book, I would highly recommend it, as few have more knowledge.
I doubt you would have much trouble selling your copy on the swap site or ebay.

Rick · 17th December 2009, 09:12 PM

Jan ,
We are mostly old hands here .

We all are aware of the shortcomings of Cato's book; we have been for years .
You're telling us something that is already a matter of record on this forum .
You'd know that if you searched about the book here .

I thought you were unnecessarily harsh in your comments about the book .

I took exception to your remarks especially as a new member under moderation .

There you have it .

vampire · 17th December 2009, 09:14 PM

thank you for your words
indeed there is more to the moro people that meets the eye
for some time i have spend time in citys like oro etc
and i see a lot about the early dutch that came there so
long ago.
about the book i did expect a lot more ,so i was very disapointed
when i did get it
oke water under the bridge
here in holland we hear about a book the is on the writers table
also some how we are not all the same happy people
what i like is the difference between the indonesians and the philippino
people in language and style
i do think the moro kris was born in war etc
and in the indonesian isle there was a need of the spirts in there live
how we will see
bill i have to work ,but would like to have a change of minds
greet to all jan smit

Henk · 17th December 2009, 09:30 PM

Jan,

You should be enlighted by the presence of so much knowledge on this forum.
Your reaction is most offending and not necessary at all.

I don't understand why some Dutch forummembers always react so crude

We are adults discussing subjects of our hobby in a friendly and respectful way here. I really don't understand why your reaction is like you were stuck by a bee. Probably you was very disapointed by the purchase of your book. Realize that we all had our moments of disapointment regarding our hobby.
Please don't unload your frustrations on a forummember.

The reaction of Rick on your topic was a friendly suggestion. Realize that most forummembers made their steps long before your 45 years. If you have so much knowledge share it with us. A good teacher is happy to share his knowledge with those who are interested and willing to learn.

Please show that we Dutch are sophisticated and well mannered as well.

David · 17th December 2009, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vampire

in mine land ,we have a saying
that is like this ,if you play the bal
do not be supriced if some one plays it back

Perhaps Jan, but what we are doing here is not a competitive sport and the goal is not to win the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vampire

i do give mine opinion over a book that ,many say
buy it is the end
well i do not think so ,mine good right
you seem to share the same opion

Actually we don't share the same opinion. I think that Cato's book is a fine one, albeit one with certain limitation, but i am quite happy to have it in my library. Again, please name a better book that is specifically written on the subject of Moro swords. There aren't any, but Cato, so for now it remains the best we have on the subject in spite of it's flaws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vampire

mine reaction is simly a reaction on his reaction
if you do not know your counterpart be easy with
your advice ,yes
but i see there is a world of diverence between
rick and jan.

As i see it yours is an over reaction to Rick's reaction. You seem to be seeking information here, correct? You admitted in a previous thread that you are new to Moro kris so one might infer that you are indeed looking for some help on the subject, that you do not indeed know it all. Rick made a friendly effort to direct you to more information on the subject. He agreed with you that Cato has limitations and that we have made some progress on his work right here in our forum, but he supported the book for being ground breaking on the subject, which it is being the first and only book on the subject. You chose to take his friendly advice to search our archives defensively as if it were some kind of insult to your honor. My friendly advice to you is get over that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vampire

that will be the end of this
for your info i spend time in your memory banks
also spend some time in the books of europe
and if some one can not critiseze a book
without beeing ...............
i wonder if this is the place to be
grt the vampire

You spent time in our memory banks? How many of the 500 threads on the subject did you actually get deeply into in this short period of time?
You are, of course, more than welcome to provide constructive criticism to any published book. You should also expect that you will then find people who both agree and disagree with your position or parts of it. Taking offense to the disagreements or resisting suggestions for your research is not likely to take you very far. Whether or not this is the place to be only you can decide for yourself.

vampire · 17th December 2009, 09:49 PM

henk
if you do not like your country men
maybe ,just maybe you must think of living in galifornia
blue waters blue sky
for start if i have a opion about a book
i should be able to say so
and if i express mine self i a reasonable way
i do not want to be atacked in some strange from
and i say if rick can not take it
i leave from this side ,like many of dutch before
so that the others can all be very very nice
i like to go somewhere with mine study of the kris
i hope this makes you feel save
thank allah we are not all the same in this world

between you and me some are hollands and some others dutch
like some are philippino and others are moro,s
hai to you all have a good live hank

17th December 2009, 05:07 PM	#1
vampire Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: amsterdam holland Posts: 28	the book of moro the book of moro finaly today the book came in ,oh happy the famous book writen by the great R.CATO with all the info and pictures for the small and starting collectors well afther sometime ............................................ i said boy o boy this is big disapointment maybe i did expected to much ,but i try to resell it quikly is it a lemon ??????????? well it give little and if this is the only book ,it is time for a better also having many great books over indonesian kris butt what the hell,mine advice over this cato book read it before you buy i wish all nice days a good new year the vampire

17th December 2009, 05:37 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Criticism You do realise that this is the first book ever written on the subject, correct ? You have to dig for more information on your own . I suggest you start by entering the words moro kris into our search function . Please get back to us when you have finished reading . There is more, deeper information to be found here than in Cato's groundbreaking effort .

17th December 2009, 06:19 PM	#3
vampire Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: amsterdam holland Posts: 28	dear rick dear rick i know this is the first book on this topic but i have some more books on weapons yes ???????????????? and before you start to tell me what i must do you find out more about me yes ???????????? this book is not the book ,people say it is yes and did look into your search function yes again and the information is nice and up to date but you and me while never agree over this eh book and about me do you know that in the library in good old madrid that is in spain there are writings over the moro long before this book long before the philippines where liberated by stars a stripes here in Holland we have collection that are 300 years old and that is oke yes so i made mine steps the last 45 years oke i did it all for me ,but give me some stripes before you start to tell what i must do and what i must think when i did call this writing a lemon oke is not all nice to call this book a what ever all i want to say to buyers LOOK READ and than buy or not but for that money there are other books and better so rick have a nice christmas and in the comming year i will not tell you what to and when if you do the same warm grt jan smit the vampire

17th December 2009, 08:15 PM	#6
vampire Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: amsterdam holland Posts: 28	david mine friend in mine land ,we have a saying that is like this ,if you play the bal do not be supriced if some one plays it back i do give mine opinion over a book that ,many say buy it is the end well i do not think so ,mine good right you seem to share the same opion mine reaction is simly a reaction on his reaction if you do not know your counterpart be easy with your advice ,yes but i see there is a world of diverence between rick and jan. that will be the end of this for your info i spend time in your memory banks also spend some time in the books of europe and if some one can not critiseze a book without beeing ............... i wonder if this is the place to be grt the vampire

17th December 2009, 09:12 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	It's A Matter of Attitude Jan , We are mostly old hands here . We all are aware of the shortcomings of Cato's book; we have been for years . You're telling us something that is already a matter of record on this forum . You'd know that if you searched about the book here . I thought you were unnecessarily harsh in your comments about the book . I took exception to your remarks especially as a new member under moderation . There you have it .

17th December 2009, 07:39 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	It would have been nice to know that you were so well informed on the subject in the first place, no ? Merry Christmas to you Jan .

17th December 2009, 07:44 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Jan, i am not sure why exactly you found the need to reply to Rick's post so defensively and full of anger. Apparently something he said triggered you in some way, but your reply seems just a bit reactionary to me. Nowhere does he tell you what you must do or think. He merely made a friendly suggestion. On Cato, i certainly agree that this book is not in any way the end all on Moro weapons. It leaves many unanswered question, has holes in it's research and the photos aren't very detailed or well printed for reference. It is, however, to my understanding, the only book (certainly in English) that specifically concentrates on Moro blades. That said it is indeed lacking on many levels, but IMO it is also worth owning for anyone interested in Moro weapons. It is the work that breaks the ground for all discussion that is to follow. Of course Moro swords, or the weapons of any culture, cannot be studied in a vacuum, so it is imperative that we look to many sources of reference to fill in our understanding. Yes, there is much written material on the Moros themselves and these texts do make mention here and there to their weapons, but they do not concentrate on the subject. Cato's book is just a start. Rick suggested that you spend some time in our archives because you are new here, not because he is making assumptions about your level of knowledge or learning. He is not telling you what you "must" do (he never used that word), simply what you can do to further research this subject. These weapons have been a strong and heated subject of conversation in this forum for many years, with the accumulated knowledge of many well versed members adding to our knowledge base and that of Cato. Rick was merely suggesting that you spend some time with our archives if you find the information in Cato lacking because in his opinion (and mine) we have far surpassed Cato with some of the research that has been posted here in our understanding (...and it would take quite some time to sift through all our threads on Moro blades. You say you "looked into" them, but there is no way you could have really studied them as that would literally take many days of reading. A search for "Moro" brings up 500 threads, many of with are a multiple of pages long.) We don't always agree, but that is for you to decide what is correct and what might be mere speculation. There is so much there though and countless examples of fine Moro weapons to look at for reference. You say that for the money there are better books to be had on the subject. Would you care to name one, because i am unaware of any that concentrate on these weapons specifically. It is certainly past time that another book be written on the subject with updated knowledge and references. We have talked about this many times on this forum and you will no doubt find those discussions if you do indeed research our archives. I hope you do take the time to really look deeply into these archives. I am not telling you what to do, just responding to your post and making a friendly suggestion. I would also suggest that you remove that chip off your shoulder as it really isn't conducive to the spirit of friendly exchange that we attempt to encourge on these forums. ....and a very warm and happy Christmas to you as well Jan.

17th December 2009, 08:43 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Moro weapons are not my main area of interest, but they are intriguing and important enough to have a general understanding of them in the "mental database". This was splendidly accomplished by Cato. Inevitably, when more smart and educated people started digging, new facts were uncovered, and the topic became progressively more complex and richly textured. The chapter on Philippine weapons in the Macao Museum was the next step, but space limitations were severe. Still, I learned more. I think it is high time for a truly knowledgeable person to sit down and write "The Ultimate Book". I would buy it in a jiffy. The only problem is that such a book will remain " ultimate" for a limited period of time only , and will inevitably become yet another outdated volume :-) Such is the fate of any and every research book. Cato was just a very good start, analogous to " See Dick run". Not an Elgood-type treatise, for sure. But without it I, for one, would have never been able to acquire the vocabulary and to learn the alphabet to be able to read and understand more sophisticated arguments on the topic. And for that alone, Cato has my hat tipped off to him.

17th December 2009, 08:45 PM	#8
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Vampire, I think there would be quite a following of your posts if you can enlighten us on Moro arms. I suspect there is quite a bit of collected information, especially in Spain & the Netherlands. Trouble is, to have a scholar do the research & report. In reading about the mountain tribes of Luzon, I found the traditions/customs of a particular clan varied in the same group. So with the Moro's, you not only had the different Sultans & groups, but the clans. While Islam & Sultans may have well decreed uniformity into many matters, I suspect that many of the clans still had their own beliefs on many matters such as rituals of warrior groups & talismans. I suspect Mr. Cato has faults in his book but I also do not definitive proof of any faults. There is a number of posts by different people, who also do not think Mr. Cato reach perfection. As Rick mentioned, this is the first book & will certainly be the foundation for future works. As a future book lacks financial rewards, it may be a long time in coming. As for the book, I would highly recommend it, as few have more knowledge. I doubt you would have much trouble selling your copy on the swap site or ebay.

17th December 2009, 09:14 PM	#10
vampire Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: amsterdam holland Posts: 28	hai bill thank you for your words indeed there is more to the moro people that meets the eye for some time i have spend time in citys like oro etc and i see a lot about the early dutch that came there so long ago. about the book i did expect a lot more ,so i was very disapointed when i did get it oke water under the bridge here in holland we hear about a book the is on the writers table also some how we are not all the same happy people what i like is the difference between the indonesians and the philippino people in language and style i do think the moro kris was born in war etc and in the indonesian isle there was a need of the spirts in there live how we will see bill i have to work ,but would like to have a change of minds greet to all jan smit

17th December 2009, 09:30 PM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Jan, You should be enlighted by the presence of so much knowledge on this forum. Your reaction is most offending and not necessary at all. I don't understand why some Dutch forummembers always react so crude We are adults discussing subjects of our hobby in a friendly and respectful way here. I really don't understand why your reaction is like you were stuck by a bee. Probably you was very disapointed by the purchase of your book. Realize that we all had our moments of disapointment regarding our hobby. Please don't unload your frustrations on a forummember. The reaction of Rick on your topic was a friendly suggestion. Realize that most forummembers made their steps long before your 45 years. If you have so much knowledge share it with us. A good teacher is happy to share his knowledge with those who are interested and willing to learn. Please show that we Dutch are sophisticated and well mannered as well.

17th December 2009, 09:49 PM	#13
vampire Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: amsterdam holland Posts: 28	henk if you do not like your country men maybe ,just maybe you must think of living in galifornia blue waters blue sky for start if i have a opion about a book i should be able to say so and if i express mine self i a reasonable way i do not want to be atacked in some strange from and i say if rick can not take it i leave from this side ,like many of dutch before so that the others can all be very very nice i like to go somewhere with mine study of the kris i hope this makes you feel save thank allah we are not all the same in this world between you and me some are hollands and some others dutch like some are philippino and others are moro,s hai to you all have a good live hank