Laminated Luzon Daga

Dimasalang · 1st November 2009, 02:39 AM

Grabbed this one off eBay. Looks to be a laminated Luzon dagger from the Revolution/Phil-Am war era. The blade is well made, straight, and uniform. The brass fittings have a nice feel, made from a thick heavy solid piece of brass. Handle is horn with pretty good checkering. Love the way these older knives are, solid feel and well balanced...this one isn't super meticulous detailed, but it has that feel and touch of being made by someone well experienced.
Let me know what you all think? Any more suggestions, info, or opinions will be appreciated.

Spunjer · 1st November 2009, 02:40 PM

nice dagger, dimasalang! haven't really seen too many luzon pieces that's laminated. did it come with a scabbard?

Battara · 1st November 2009, 05:59 PM

Very nice piece. Has more lamination than my Luzon piece.

Dimasalang · 1st November 2009, 06:02 PM

Thanks guys. Naw it didn't come with a scabbard.

migueldiaz · 2nd November 2009, 01:26 AM

Nice dagger, Dimasalang!

As Spunjer hinted, the scabbard could have provided a vital clue.

But as somebody said, mystery is better than facts ... the latter is boring

So here's my (wild) speculation

on its probable background --

- as you mentioned, it looks like it's a Phil. Revolution/ Phil.-Am. War piece given its hilt design, etc.

- given the profuse laminations, it's probably made by a Visayan bladesmith working in Luzon

- in Krieger's Plate 12, a Luzon dagger is shown having the same blade shape

No. 1. Curved blade of steel with flattened surface on inner side and median ridge on beveled outer surface; octagonal hardwood handle. Tagalog, central Luzon. 2. Bolo with steel blade point broken off. Handle consists of elaborately carved carabao horn. Luzon. 3. Broad-backed steel blade provided with convex cutting edge; handle completely shod with figured brass. Bagobo, southern Mindanao. 4. Bolo having chased iron blade inlaid with soft metal; beautifully carved carabao-horn handle. Cebu, Visayan Islands. 5. Boy's barong; small elliptic steel blade; carved hardwood handle ferruled with silver bands and braided silver cord. Taken in 1913 at Mount Talipao, Mindanao. 6. Steel blade, "pirah" acutely pointed and convexly curved; provided with sharp downward curve near handle similar to the Malayan parang-latok; hardwood handle equipped with symbolic recurved horns and spike. Cebu, Visayan Islands. 7. Concavo-convex grooved steel blade; brass-shod handle and guard spike. Bagobo, southern Mindanao. 8. Kampilan-bolo type; chain ornament on hardwood pommel. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao. 9. Grotesque totemic or wyang carving on wood handle; circular guard of wood; old type of Malay weapon. Panay, Visayan Islands. 10. Pirah. Cutting edge of blade has sweeping convex curve; heavy, concave blade back; truncated slope at point; handle fashioned of carabao horn and provided with long extension arm support. Moro, Basilan Island.

- alternatively, it can be a pure Visayan piece, say Samar (just like the nicely laminated talibong below which is probably from Samar ...)

- note that in Krieger's Plate 13, there's a Samar dagger with a blade shape that's very similar to the subject blade
No. 1. Dagger; triangular sectioned, curved, and pointed blade; single cutting edge; carved wood handle. Quinapundar, Samar Island. 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao. 4. Plain dirk-dagger having curved blade, ferruled wooden handle, and circular guard. Moro, Mindanao. 5. Serpentine Malay dagger; grotesque dugong ivory carving on hilt. Collected by the United States exploring expedition, 1838-1842, under Admiral Wilkes. 6. Malay dagger; curved wooden pistol shape hilt; characteristic serpentine figure carving; straight-edged blade. Wilkes exploring expedition. 7. Serpentine kris-dagger; plain horn handle; engraved circular silver guard and ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 8. Malay dagger; laminated blade; figured and carved handle of wood. Dyak, Pasir River, southeast Borneo. 9. Punal de kris; blade chased on surface section near handle; wood handle set in socketed brass ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 10. Dagger; curved, double-edged blade; curved plain wood handle. Moro, Mindanao. 11. Dagger having saberlike blade; metal guard provided with volute tips; carved wood handle; blade chased and inlaid with soft metal at back. Moro, Jolo. 12. Dagger; serpentine blade; metal cross guard; spiral fluted grip of Camagon wood. 13. "Insurrecto" sword-dagger chased blade, pointed and double edged; cross guard; horn handle inlaid with shell mosaic; symbolically figured pommel.

A little off-topic but somehow still related => blade no. 1 in Plate 13 is mentioned as being triangular sectioned. This must have been the tres cantos ... does anybody have a sample of this?

PS - Back to the topic, the theorized Luzon-Samar origin is also supported by geography. Luzon Island and Samar Island are right next to each other.

Robert · 2nd November 2009, 02:58 AM

"A little off-topic but somehow still related => blade no. 1 in Plate 13 is mentioned as being triangular sectioned. This must have been the tres cantos ... does anybody have a sample of this?"

Is this an example of the type of blade you were asking about ? The blade is only slightly curved and it is hard to see in the picture. I believe that this knife is also from Luzon.

Robert

migueldiaz · 2nd November 2009, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

"A little off-topic but somehow still related => blade no. 1 in Plate 13 is mentioned as being triangular sectioned. This must have been the tres cantos ... does anybody have a sample of this?"

Is this an examlpe of the type of blade you were aking about? Robert

Robert, thanks!

That looks like it, but to be honest I have not seen one myself (though I've been hearing about the 'tres cantos' ever since I was a kid ... which was about 10 years ago). Ok just kidding ... that was ages ago

Can you please describe for us how it is triangular-sectioned? Thanks again.

Robert · 2nd November 2009, 03:36 AM

"Can you please describe for us how it is triangular-sectioned?"

The blade is flat on the side not showing while the side shown has a raised median ridge with only the lower edge being sharpened starting from about an inch or so from the hilt. The top section has a false edge that starts about an inch or so from the hilt and continues to the tip of the blade. The picture shown in the plate is not to clear and the description is rather vague so I posted this piece to see if you thought it might be close to what you were asking for.

Robert

Battara · 2nd November 2009, 05:04 AM

Both Robert's and Dimasalang's pieces in blade shape are similar to mine which I attribute to Tagalog (and in this case Katipunan). I also feel that your's are as well. Migueldiaz brings up a good source for this in his book. Again, Dimasalang's is more laminated than mine:

migueldiaz · 2nd November 2009, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

"Can you please describe for us how it is triangular-sectioned?"

The blade is flat on the side not showing while the side shown has a raised median ridge with only the lower edge being sharpened starting from about an inch or so from the hilt. The top section has a false edge that starts about an inch or so from the hilt and continues to the tip of the blade. The picture shown in the plate is not to clear and the description is rather vague so I posted this piece to see if you thought it might be close to what you were asking for.

Robert

Robert, many thanks sir

Looks like it's exactly what I've been looking for.

By the way, that dagger of yours is very interesting because its leather scabbard points to a Luzon origin ... but the parallel engraved lines on the ricasso suggest a Visayan influence, if not origin.

I recently got a piece which has similar features (below) -- it's a Luzon sword but I think those parallel lines in the ricasso hints on Visayan influence ...

migueldiaz · 2nd November 2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Both Robert's and Dimasalang's pieces in blade shape are similar to mine which I attribute to Tagalog (and in this case Katipunan). I also feel that your's are as well. Migueldiaz brings up a good source for this in his book. Again, Dimasalang's is more laminated than mine:

Battara, isn't it interesting to note that these Luzon swords' blade shape is very similar to the traditional Visayan (Cebu-Samar-Leyte) talibong? (i.e., straight spine, and convex cutting edge).

My own guess as to why is that is because it's inevitable -- Luzon trades with and occasionally raids the Visayans (and vice versa), even before the colonial times. Thus, cross-pollination is bound to happen

Robert · 2nd November 2009, 09:02 PM

Dimasalang,
Very nice dagger! First one I've seen with a checkered grip.

Here is another knife that might be of interest to you. Median ridge on one side only (opposite side is flat) with only lower edge sharpened. Blade seems to be laminated but I have yet to try vinegar to bring it out. Brought back by American Serviceman Joseph Latterty and was supposedly captured during the Battle of Manila. The total length is 16-1/2 inches with a blade length of 12-3/4 inches. Sorry about the poor picture quality.

Robert

Dimasalang · 3rd November 2009, 12:56 AM

Thanks all for sharing!

Following Miguels assessment. Agreed, the ethnic groups within the Philippines during this time were not truly separated. Transportation and traveling by boat was as common as flying now-a-days, and Manila(as it is now) was seen as a city of opportunity. Some of the revolutionary leaders were from other regions of the Philippines. Gen Jose Paua was full chinese, Gen Juan Cailles was half french and half indian(from India). Not to hard to believe a panday from the middle and southern regions may have worked his way up to Luzon. Pandays must have been in high demand during the time of the revolution and the Phil-Am war. Very interesting none-the-less.

Robert, interesting piece and history you got there. Not to go off on a tangent, but this reminded me of a sword I tried to attain a few months back. It was listed as a Manila sword and inscribed was the date and a persons name. That was all. I did my own research and found the person to be a sailor of the McColloch. The McColloch took a small part in the Battle of Manila Bay, but it was not a warship. After the battle, it was this ship that Aguinaldo and his Generals rode back on when they returned from self-exile from Hong Kong...for the longest time I thought they came back on the Olympia w/ Dewey. The date was a month or so after the battle of Manila, it was acquired during peace time. Given Aguinaldo and his generals were the only armed filipinos on board that ship, it led me to believe this had to be a sword that belonged to one of Aguinaldos generals. The sword was on the site for a good year and I was gradually saving up for it...once I had the funds I sent a email, the next day I got a reply and they just sword sold the sword two weeks prior.

1st November 2009, 02:39 AM	#1
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Laminated Luzon Daga Grabbed this one off eBay. Looks to be a laminated Luzon dagger from the Revolution/Phil-Am war era. The blade is well made, straight, and uniform. The brass fittings have a nice feel, made from a thick heavy solid piece of brass. Handle is horn with pretty good checkering. Love the way these older knives are, solid feel and well balanced...this one isn't super meticulous detailed, but it has that feel and touch of being made by someone well experienced. Let me know what you all think? Any more suggestions, info, or opinions will be appreciated.

2nd November 2009, 01:26 AM	#5
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Nice dagger, Dimasalang! As Spunjer hinted, the scabbard could have provided a vital clue. But as somebody said, mystery is better than facts ... the latter is boring So here's my (wild) speculation on its probable background -- - as you mentioned, it looks like it's a Phil. Revolution/ Phil.-Am. War piece given its hilt design, etc. - given the profuse laminations, it's probably made by a Visayan bladesmith working in Luzon - in Krieger's Plate 12, a Luzon dagger is shown having the same blade shape No. 1. Curved blade of steel with flattened surface on inner side and median ridge on beveled outer surface; octagonal hardwood handle. Tagalog, central Luzon. 2. Bolo with steel blade point broken off. Handle consists of elaborately carved carabao horn. Luzon. 3. Broad-backed steel blade provided with convex cutting edge; handle completely shod with figured brass. Bagobo, southern Mindanao. 4. Bolo having chased iron blade inlaid with soft metal; beautifully carved carabao-horn handle. Cebu, Visayan Islands. 5. Boy's barong; small elliptic steel blade; carved hardwood handle ferruled with silver bands and braided silver cord. Taken in 1913 at Mount Talipao, Mindanao. 6. Steel blade, "pirah" acutely pointed and convexly curved; provided with sharp downward curve near handle similar to the Malayan parang-latok; hardwood handle equipped with symbolic recurved horns and spike. Cebu, Visayan Islands. 7. Concavo-convex grooved steel blade; brass-shod handle and guard spike. Bagobo, southern Mindanao. 8. Kampilan-bolo type; chain ornament on hardwood pommel. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao. 9. Grotesque totemic or wyang carving on wood handle; circular guard of wood; old type of Malay weapon. Panay, Visayan Islands. 10. Pirah. Cutting edge of blade has sweeping convex curve; heavy, concave blade back; truncated slope at point; handle fashioned of carabao horn and provided with long extension arm support. Moro, Basilan Island. - alternatively, it can be a pure Visayan piece, say Samar (just like the nicely laminated talibong below which is probably from Samar ...) - note that in Krieger's Plate 13, there's a Samar dagger with a blade shape that's very similar to the subject blade No. 1. Dagger; triangular sectioned, curved, and pointed blade; single cutting edge; carved wood handle. Quinapundar, Samar Island. 2. Dagger "bala-rao"; hastate shape double-edged blade; handle provided with a peculiar finger-fitting grip consisting of extended tang and two horns; silver ferrule at center. Chief defense weapon of the Mandayan, southeastern Mindanao. 3. Woman's knife. Blade curved, designed for striking a slanting blow. Bagobo, southeastern Mindanao. 4. Plain dirk-dagger having curved blade, ferruled wooden handle, and circular guard. Moro, Mindanao. 5. Serpentine Malay dagger; grotesque dugong ivory carving on hilt. Collected by the United States exploring expedition, 1838-1842, under Admiral Wilkes. 6. Malay dagger; curved wooden pistol shape hilt; characteristic serpentine figure carving; straight-edged blade. Wilkes exploring expedition. 7. Serpentine kris-dagger; plain horn handle; engraved circular silver guard and ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 8. Malay dagger; laminated blade; figured and carved handle of wood. Dyak, Pasir River, southeast Borneo. 9. Punal de kris; blade chased on surface section near handle; wood handle set in socketed brass ferrule. Moro, Mindanao. 10. Dagger; curved, double-edged blade; curved plain wood handle. Moro, Mindanao. 11. Dagger having saberlike blade; metal guard provided with volute tips; carved wood handle; blade chased and inlaid with soft metal at back. Moro, Jolo. 12. Dagger; serpentine blade; metal cross guard; spiral fluted grip of Camagon wood. 13. "Insurrecto" sword-dagger chased blade, pointed and double edged; cross guard; horn handle inlaid with shell mosaic; symbolically figured pommel. A little off-topic but somehow still related => blade no. 1 in Plate 13 is mentioned as being triangular sectioned. This must have been the tres cantos ... does anybody have a sample of this? PS - Back to the topic, the theorized Luzon-Samar origin is also supported by geography. Luzon Island and Samar Island are right next to each other. Attached Images

2nd November 2009, 02:58 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	"A little off-topic but somehow still related => blade no. 1 in Plate 13 is mentioned as being triangular sectioned. This must have been the tres cantos ... does anybody have a sample of this?" Is this an example of the type of blade you were asking about ? The blade is only slightly curved and it is hard to see in the picture. I believe that this knife is also from Luzon. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 2nd November 2009 at 03:15 AM.

2nd November 2009, 05:04 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Both Robert's and Dimasalang's pieces in blade shape are similar to mine which I attribute to Tagalog (and in this case Katipunan). I also feel that your's are as well. Migueldiaz brings up a good source for this in his book. Again, Dimasalang's is more laminated than mine: Attached Images

2nd November 2009, 09:02 PM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Dimasalang, Very nice dagger! First one I've seen with a checkered grip. Here is another knife that might be of interest to you. Median ridge on one side only (opposite side is flat) with only lower edge sharpened. Blade seems to be laminated but I have yet to try vinegar to bring it out. Brought back by American Serviceman Joseph Latterty and was supposedly captured during the Battle of Manila. The total length is 16-1/2 inches with a blade length of 12-3/4 inches. Sorry about the poor picture quality. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 2nd November 2009 at 09:15 PM.

1st November 2009, 02:40 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nice dagger, dimasalang! haven't really seen too many luzon pieces that's laminated. did it come with a scabbard?

1st November 2009, 05:59 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Very nice piece. Has more lamination than my Luzon piece.

1st November 2009, 06:02 PM	#4
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Thanks guys. Naw it didn't come with a scabbard.

2nd November 2009, 03:36 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	"Can you please describe for us how it is triangular-sectioned?" The blade is flat on the side not showing while the side shown has a raised median ridge with only the lower edge being sharpened starting from about an inch or so from the hilt. The top section has a false edge that starts about an inch or so from the hilt and continues to the tip of the blade. The picture shown in the plate is not to clear and the description is rather vague so I posted this piece to see if you thought it might be close to what you were asking for. Robert

3rd November 2009, 12:56 AM	#13
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Thanks all for sharing! Following Miguels assessment. Agreed, the ethnic groups within the Philippines during this time were not truly separated. Transportation and traveling by boat was as common as flying now-a-days, and Manila(as it is now) was seen as a city of opportunity. Some of the revolutionary leaders were from other regions of the Philippines. Gen Jose Paua was full chinese, Gen Juan Cailles was half french and half indian(from India). Not to hard to believe a panday from the middle and southern regions may have worked his way up to Luzon. Pandays must have been in high demand during the time of the revolution and the Phil-Am war. Very interesting none-the-less. Robert, interesting piece and history you got there. Not to go off on a tangent, but this reminded me of a sword I tried to attain a few months back. It was listed as a Manila sword and inscribed was the date and a persons name. That was all. I did my own research and found the person to be a sailor of the McColloch. The McColloch took a small part in the Battle of Manila Bay, but it was not a warship. After the battle, it was this ship that Aguinaldo and his Generals rode back on when they returned from self-exile from Hong Kong...for the longest time I thought they came back on the Olympia w/ Dewey. The date was a month or so after the battle of Manila, it was acquired during peace time. Given Aguinaldo and his generals were the only armed filipinos on board that ship, it led me to believe this had to be a sword that belonged to one of Aguinaldos generals. The sword was on the site for a good year and I was gradually saving up for it...once I had the funds I sent a email, the next day I got a reply and they just sword sold the sword two weeks prior.