Barung; weapon, tool or tourist piece? - Page 2

migueldiaz · 23rd August 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

I wonder where that Thompson came from, Danao?

Are those BAR's I see. Miguel, I'm always enjoying your photos, good work Bro.

Kino, thanks! The Thompson could have been Danao [Cebu], or it could have also been a WW2 piece, just like the BARs.

Suddenly, that reminds me of Vic Morrow, Rick Jason, & "Kirby" ... and hey, where's that music coming from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Ilagas were notorious back in the 70's. lots of bloody clashes then. use to hear stories were they would lop off the ear of their kills and made a necklace out of it. didn't know they were deactivated...

Spunjer, actually they weren't deactivated. I should have not used "reactivated"

Yes, they are still pretty much around in Mindanao I heard ...

wilked aka Khun Deng · 24th August 2009, 08:56 AM

Well the Thompson would have rated pretty well up there - remember the caliber, .45, was designed originally cause the .38 wouldn't stop the Jura mentados (sp?). You got a caliber specifically designed to kill your ancestors cause they're as tough as nails - that's got to carry some prestige.

Yes that's a M-4 carbine sticking into the picture - in sore need of some maintenance I might add.

And Yes to most of them being WW2 pieces, ammo and spare parts are definite limiting factors in todays "skirmishes".

migueldiaz · 26th August 2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

Well the Thompson would have rated pretty well up there - remember the caliber, .45, was designed originally cause the .38 wouldn't stop the Jura mentados (sp?). You got a caliber specifically designed to kill your ancestors cause they're as tough as nails - that's got to carry some prestige.

Yes that's a M-4 carbine sticking into the picture - in sore need of some maintenance I might add.

And Yes to most of them being WW2 pieces, ammo and spare parts are definite limiting factors in todays "skirmishes".

Thanks Dan for the additional info

I've finally found a pic of an Ilaga[?] with a blade, per below. The article from which the pic came from is also a good read ...

migueldiaz · 26th August 2009, 04:42 PM

Going back to barongs as used by present-day Moros, at the Phil. Military Academy (PMA) there's this barong captured from an Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) commander in 2000.

The description of the piece is --

"A Barong previously owned by Abu Sayaff Commander Mujib Susukan. It was seized on May 7, 2000 in Barangay Bandang, Talipao, Sulu by elements of Taskforce Sultan (104th brigade), 1st Infantry Division of the Philippine Army under then Col. Romeo P. Tolentino during its first encounter in the attempt to rescue 19 foreign hostages kidnapped in Sipadan, Sabah, Malaysia. Now on Display at the Philippine Military Academy Museum."

The ASG is the one responsible also for the kidnapping of the American missionary couple, Martin & Gracia Burnham.

KuKulzA28 · 26th August 2009, 06:35 PM

It seems that without extensive foreign aid the Moro insurgents cannot win. And indirectly, perhaps the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao cannot hold onto its lands. I don't care how many Desert Eagles, AKs, barongs, and kris they got... The Philippines are just so much bigger and seemingly bent on taking control of it all, and substituting the Muslims.

No good guys on either side but the unarmed civilians who just want peace...

That's a nice barong though. And that Ilanga tropper seems to have a minitature binagong or something. Hopefully even if people are resettled, massacred, oppressed (on both sides) that the culture won't die. Language, culture, and skills are very important.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 29th August 2009, 10:03 AM

Not to turn this into a political thread, but KukulzA28 brought up a good point about culture surviving. What stuck me hard was that the Tausug culture on Sulu was really a melting pot formed by captive slaves for the bird nest and other exotic food trades who at one time outnumbered the original Tausugs. The Tausug culture survived only because it had mechanisms in it for those slaves to eventually work to their freedom and become assimilated into the society, generations later those former slaves now consider themselves Tausug.

That is a nice barong - wish they hadn't shellacked it though.

Andrew · 29th August 2009, 02:21 PM

Let's focus on the weapons, guys. In my experience, threads that have even a bit of well-intentioned political "drift" can end badly.

Thanks,
Andrew

KuKulzA28 · 29th August 2009, 03:23 PM

Will do Andrew, thanks for the early and friendly warning.

I've been told by Filipino Martial Artists that Sulu still has quite a live blade-making tradition, and the best place to acquire quality Moro blades is there. Does anyone know how the blade-making goes on over there? Is it still individual Pandays making blades? Do they have some Pandays that make mainly tourist pieces where some make only legitimate weaponry?

Battara · 29th August 2009, 08:16 PM

From what I have seen from recent pandays the blades are laminated but without a separate ganga.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 29th August 2009, 10:16 PM

Thanks for course correction Andrew - it's been edited.

Andrew · 30th August 2009, 01:00 AM

No worries, guys.

Just been around this and other forums long enough to know how quickly things can turn, particularly given the mix of ethnicity, nationality and political affiliations we have here.

Thanks.

migueldiaz · 31st August 2009, 02:03 AM

I picked up the kris below in Mindanao from a Muslim (Maranao) trader about a year ago.

I think it's an example of the fusion between two ethnic groups. My theory is that somehow a Visayan who settled in Mindanao ended up with the kris, re-hilted it using their traditional pommel design, and then used it for his everyday 'carry'.

As a remote analogy, it's probably somewhat like WW2 Germans in Russia using the much respected T-34s.

KuKulzA28 · 31st August 2009, 02:23 AM

that, a utility knife, and a gun would be my "EveryDay Carry" if I lived there too!

migueldiaz, maybe you can help me answer these...
How common are these laminated blades do you think? What prices do they run at? How many are made per how many tourist swords are made?

I think those would be good indicators for those who don't live in the Philippines.

Battara · 31st August 2009, 05:56 AM

Interesting piece - the blade and scabbard are Maguindanao.......

migueldiaz · 31st August 2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

migueldiaz, maybe you can help me answer these... How common are these laminated blades do you think? What prices do they run at? How many are made per how many tourist swords are made?

KuKulzA28, the older ones would be the ones that will have laminated blades. And in two shops I went to last year in Davao City in Mindanao (in a strip retail for Moro crafts called Aldevinco Center), each would have about 15 krisses and only one or two out of the 15 would be older pieces, and they would of course be the ones that will have laminated blades.

That's just anecdotal evidence of course. I'm not really in a position to gauge the relative proportion of the quantities between the old ones vs. the tourist versions, because I haven't surveyed these shops enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Interesting piece - the blade and scabbard are Maguindanao.......

Thanks for the comment, Battara. If you don't mind my asking as I really don't know, what would be the particular features of the blade and scabbard that make them Maguin.? Thanks in advance

Battara · 31st August 2009, 08:50 PM

The front section of the ganga where the mouth is, is characteristic of being Maguindanao as well as the "shoulderless" scabbard top, which is a style of Maguindanao scabbard according to Cato.

migueldiaz · 1st September 2009, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The front section of the ganga where the mouth is, is characteristic of being Maguindanao as well as the "shoulderless" scabbard top, which is a style of Maguindanao scabbard according to Cato.

Thanks!

Here's a close-up view of the gangya, which I need to clean and etch also ...

migueldiaz · 15th September 2009, 12:14 AM

From a book (Space & Identity, by Sakili) borrowed from a friend, here's a pic of how a modern Tausug carries his kalis (kris):

KuKulzA28 · 27th October 2009, 04:53 AM

Didn't they wear it with the bottom edge facing up? When did this change?

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 10:28 AM

Hmm.

The barong pictured in this page is reminiscent of something made by Jimmy Lubian, a man in Sulu who i believe still makes barong (and more often times than not restores them). I believe forum member zamboanga once had a Lubian-made blade. I could be mistaken though.

EDIT: Here's a thread that showcases his work further down in the page: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1525

The etch work on the MOP inlay in the piece on this thread is less reminiscent of Lubian's work though (at least what little I have seen of Lubian's work).

migueldiaz · 24th February 2010, 01:25 PM

thepepperskull, thanks for that post.

on a related matter, one of the key leaders of the bandit-terrorist group, abu sayyaf (bearer of the sword), was killed in a military operation last week (his pic is below, and also in post no. 9 of this thread). the u.s. govt. had a bounty of $5 million on said leader's head.

anyway, the reason for this post is that i was looking in newspaper reports for the types of blade this deviant moro group carries (especially the leader). unfortunately, this is all that was reported:

"The weapons taken from the group were a Belgian FN rifle, two M-203 grenade launchers and a Squad Automatic Weapon rifle."

KuKulzA28 · 27th February 2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

The barong pictured in this page is reminiscent of something made by Jimmy Lubian, a man in Sulu who i believe still makes barong (and more often times than not restores them). I believe forum member zamboanga once had a Lubian-made blade. I could be mistaken though.

EDIT: Here's a thread that showcases his work further down in the page: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1525

The etch work on the MOP inlay in the piece on this thread is less reminiscent of Lubian's work though (at least what little I have seen of Lubian's work).

Cool, I never heard of Lubian! It is too bad I have no way of contacting him. I like the look of his work, or at least what I can find of his work on the EA&A forums here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

unfortunately, this is all that was reported:

"The weapons taken from the group were a Belgian FN rifle, two M-203 grenade launchers and a Squad Automatic Weapon rifle."

Modern warfare, modern weapons

If I was one of those Abu Sayyaf fighters, I would probably have a gun as my main weapon as well. But I'll agree that it's always interesting to see when traditional blades find employment as secondary weapons and machetes.

Rick · 27th February 2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

thepepperskull, thanks for that post.

on a related matter, one of the key leaders of the bandit-terrorist group, abu sayyaf (bearer of the sword), was killed in a military operation last week (his pic is below, and also in post no. 9 of this thread). the u.s. govt. had a bounty of $5 million on said leader's head.

anyway, the reason for this post is that i was looking in newspaper reports for the types of blade this deviant moro group carries (especially the leader). unfortunately, this is all that was reported:

"The weapons taken from the group were a Belgian FN rifle, two M-203 grenade launchers and a Squad Automatic Weapon rifle."

Barung on the left hand side, last figure .

No ?

Dimasalang · 27th February 2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Modern warfare, modern weapons

If I was one of those Abu Sayyaf fighters, I would probably have a gun as my main weapon as well. But I'll agree that it's always interesting to see when traditional blades find employment as secondary weapons and machetes.

This reminds me. A Filipino T-Shirt company made a modern day "Weapons of Moroland" Shield for one of their shirts. Out with the Kris's and Kampilan's...in with the M60s and M16s.

Dimasalang · 27th February 2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

thepepperskull, thanks for that post.

on a related matter, one of the key leaders of the bandit-terrorist group, abu sayyaf (bearer of the sword), was killed in a military operation last week (his pic is below, and also in post no. 9 of this thread). the u.s. govt. had a bounty of $5 million on said leader's head.

anyway, the reason for this post is that i was looking in newspaper reports for the types of blade this deviant moro group carries (especially the leader). unfortunately, this is all that was reported:

"The weapons taken from the group were a Belgian FN rifle, two M-203 grenade launchers and a Squad Automatic Weapon rifle."

Just amazes me really. The Moros were never truly conquered in 1913...just disarmed for the time being. The war continues.

Bill · 27th February 2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Barung on the left hand side, last figure .

No ?

Looks like one to me. I've seen barungs for sale in high end mall shops in Makati; just like the one Miguel posted at the top of this page. They use to be $500, but that was a few years ago. Kind of odd, one barung might end up lopping off heads & the next one goes home with a tourist. But then again, that's been happening for some time.

26th August 2009, 04:42 PM	#34
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Going back to barongs as used by present-day Moros, at the Phil. Military Academy (PMA) there's this barong captured from an Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) commander in 2000. The description of the piece is -- "A Barong previously owned by Abu Sayaff Commander Mujib Susukan. It was seized on May 7, 2000 in Barangay Bandang, Talipao, Sulu by elements of Taskforce Sultan (104th brigade), 1st Infantry Division of the Philippine Army under then Col. Romeo P. Tolentino during its first encounter in the attempt to rescue 19 foreign hostages kidnapped in Sipadan, Sabah, Malaysia. Now on Display at the Philippine Military Academy Museum." The ASG is the one responsible also for the kidnapping of the American missionary couple, Martin & Gracia Burnham. Attached Images

29th August 2009, 10:03 AM	#36
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Not to turn this into a political thread, but KukulzA28 brought up a good point about culture surviving. What stuck me hard was that the Tausug culture on Sulu was really a melting pot formed by captive slaves for the bird nest and other exotic food trades who at one time outnumbered the original Tausugs. The Tausug culture survived only because it had mechanisms in it for those slaves to eventually work to their freedom and become assimilated into the society, generations later those former slaves now consider themselves Tausug. That is a nice barong - wish they hadn't shellacked it though. Last edited by wilked aka Khun Deng; 29th August 2009 at 10:15 PM.

31st August 2009, 02:03 AM	#42
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	I picked up the kris below in Mindanao from a Muslim (Maranao) trader about a year ago. I think it's an example of the fusion between two ethnic groups. My theory is that somehow a Visayan who settled in Mindanao ended up with the kris, re-hilted it using their traditional pommel design, and then used it for his everyday 'carry'. As a remote analogy, it's probably somewhat like WW2 Germans in Russia using the much respected T-34s. Attached Images

15th September 2009, 12:14 AM	#48
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	From a book (Space & Identity, by Sakili) borrowed from a friend, here's a pic of how a modern Tausug carries his kalis (kris): Attached Images

24th February 2010, 01:25 PM	#51
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	thepepperskull, thanks for that post. on a related matter, one of the key leaders of the bandit-terrorist group, abu sayyaf (bearer of the sword), was killed in a military operation last week (his pic is below, and also in post no. 9 of this thread). the u.s. govt. had a bounty of $5 million on said leader's head. anyway, the reason for this post is that i was looking in newspaper reports for the types of blade this deviant moro group carries (especially the leader). unfortunately, this is all that was reported: "The weapons taken from the group were a Belgian FN rifle, two M-203 grenade launchers and a Squad Automatic Weapon rifle." Attached Images

24th August 2009, 08:56 AM	#32
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Well the Thompson would have rated pretty well up there - remember the caliber, .45, was designed originally cause the .38 wouldn't stop the Jura mentados (sp?). You got a caliber specifically designed to kill your ancestors cause they're as tough as nails - that's got to carry some prestige. Yes that's a M-4 carbine sticking into the picture - in sore need of some maintenance I might add. And Yes to most of them being WW2 pieces, ammo and spare parts are definite limiting factors in todays "skirmishes".

26th August 2009, 06:35 PM	#35
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	It seems that without extensive foreign aid the Moro insurgents cannot win. And indirectly, perhaps the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao cannot hold onto its lands. I don't care how many Desert Eagles, AKs, barongs, and kris they got... The Philippines are just so much bigger and seemingly bent on taking control of it all, and substituting the Muslims. No good guys on either side but the unarmed civilians who just want peace... That's a nice barong though. And that Ilanga tropper seems to have a minitature binagong or something. Hopefully even if people are resettled, massacred, oppressed (on both sides) that the culture won't die. Language, culture, and skills are very important.

29th August 2009, 02:21 PM	#37
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Let's focus on the weapons, guys. In my experience, threads that have even a bit of well-intentioned political "drift" can end badly. Thanks, Andrew

29th August 2009, 03:23 PM	#38
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Will do Andrew, thanks for the early and friendly warning. I've been told by Filipino Martial Artists that Sulu still has quite a live blade-making tradition, and the best place to acquire quality Moro blades is there. Does anyone know how the blade-making goes on over there? Is it still individual Pandays making blades? Do they have some Pandays that make mainly tourist pieces where some make only legitimate weaponry?

29th August 2009, 08:16 PM	#39
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	From what I have seen from recent pandays the blades are laminated but without a separate ganga.

29th August 2009, 10:16 PM	#40
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Thanks for course correction Andrew - it's been edited.

30th August 2009, 01:00 AM	#41
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	No worries, guys. Just been around this and other forums long enough to know how quickly things can turn, particularly given the mix of ethnicity, nationality and political affiliations we have here. Thanks.

31st August 2009, 02:23 AM	#43
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	that, a utility knife, and a gun would be my "EveryDay Carry" if I lived there too! migueldiaz, maybe you can help me answer these... How common are these laminated blades do you think? What prices do they run at? How many are made per how many tourist swords are made? I think those would be good indicators for those who don't live in the Philippines.

31st August 2009, 05:56 AM	#44
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Interesting piece - the blade and scabbard are Maguindanao.......

31st August 2009, 08:50 PM	#46
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The front section of the ganga where the mouth is, is characteristic of being Maguindanao as well as the "shoulderless" scabbard top, which is a style of Maguindanao scabbard according to Cato.

27th October 2009, 04:53 AM	#49
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Didn't they wear it with the bottom edge facing up? When did this change?

24th February 2010, 10:28 AM	#50
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Hmm. The barong pictured in this page is reminiscent of something made by Jimmy Lubian, a man in Sulu who i believe still makes barong (and more often times than not restores them). I believe forum member zamboanga once had a Lubian-made blade. I could be mistaken though. EDIT: Here's a thread that showcases his work further down in the page: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1525 The etch work on the MOP inlay in the piece on this thread is less reminiscent of Lubian's work though (at least what little I have seen of Lubian's work).