DIFFERENCES OF OPINION NOT ALLOWED?

[VANDOO]

I ALSO FIND THE LOCKING OF THREADS VERY DISTURBING, THERE IS NO WAY TO KEEP FROM OFFENDING EVERYONE EVEN NEVER SAYING ANYTHING OR POSTING AT ALL WOULD OFFEND SOME.

THE UNSAVORY USE OF THE WEAPON OR TOOL IS A IMPORTANT PART OF THE HISTORY AND OFTEN THE DESIGN OF THE ITEM. WE COULD DISCUSS WEAPONS AS OBJECTS BASED ONLY ON LOOKS,TRIBE, COUNTRY, MATERIALS AND DEMINSONS BUT THERE IS MUCH MORE TO ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS THAN THAT.MASS PRODUCED MILITARY WEAPONS CAN BE DISCUSSED ON FACTORY , DATE , SERIAL NUMBERS, ARSNEL MARKS AND GRADED ON CONDITION, ECT ETHINOGRAPHIC CAN NOT.
CEREMONIAL TYPES OF WEAPONS OFTEN HAVE SOME DARK HISTORY OR INCORPORATE SOME ASPECTS IN THEIR DESIGN OR USE THAT ARE PRETTY TERRIBLE. FOR EXAMPLE, THE MASAI HAVE A SMALL NUMBER OF TYPES OF WEAPONS AND THE USE AND STATUS OF THE WARRIOR IS WHY THE TWO SPEARS ARE DIFFERENT. THE CUSTOM OF POISONING THE POINTS BEFORE A CATTLE RAID BY LEAVING THEM IN A DECAYING CARCASS IS GROSS BUT STILL PART OF THEIR TRADITION AND EFFECTIVE AT MAKING THE SPEAR A MORE TERRIBLE WEAPON.
TROPHYS AND CHARMS ATTACHED TO WEAPONS ARE ALSO PART OF THE PICTURE OF THE PEOPLE AND THEIR HISTORY AND BELIEFS WHICH ALSO MAKE THE ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPON ETHINOGRAPHIC AND SOMETIMES VERY GROSS. TRIBAL PEOPLES OFTEN HAVE TO DEVELOP SPECIAL HUNTING SKILLS TO FEED THEIR FAMILYS AND SUPPORT THE LOCAL ECONOMY. I ESPECIALLY LIKE ELEPHANTS BUT MUST ADMIRE THE GUTS AND SKILL OF SOMEONE TAKING ON A ELEPHANT WITH A SWORD AND FINDING ITS WEAKNESS IN ORDER TO SURVIVE AND MAKE A LIVING. UNFORTUNATELY HISTORY IS NEVER A CLEAN AND NICE THING AT ALL TIMES ESPECIALLY WHEN MANKIND IS INVOLVED. I HOPE THIS IS NOT LOCKED ALSO AS I AM TRYING TO MAKE A POINT NOT TO PROVOKE MODERATORS OR CAUSE TROUBBLE. I WOULD NOT LIKE TO FEEL THAT I MUST TIPTOE AROUND ON THIS FORUM BEFORE I POST ANYTHING.
FOR THOSE NEWER FORUM MEMBERS NOT USED TO MY USING ALL CAPITOLS IT IS EASIER FOR ME TO SEE NOT BECAUSE I AM SHOUTING

[Jeff D]

Oh well while we are at it, I would like to see a clear policy. I must say it is a little surreal that a edged weapon forum thread could be closed by the description of the hunting of a fictional elephant, in a book that probably will be found in most high school libraries. Perhaps a little icon that indicates a thread may be graphic. Then again I really do not want this forum to be a gross out contest! good luck moderators!

Jeff

[VANDOO]

I KIND OF STEPPED IN THE MIDDLE OF IT HERE I WAS NOT AWARE OF ALL THAT HAD PRECEDED IN OTHER POSTS. I SAW CONOGRE'S POST AND WANTED TO PUT IN MY 2 CENTS WORTH BUT IT WAS ALSO LOCKED SO I MADE THIS POST. I DIDN'T SEE THE GROSS PICTURES BUT WOULD NOT NEED TO, TO KNOW THAT DEAD THINGS AND WASTEFUL KILLING IS GROSS. HUNTING IS PART OF MANS HERITAGE AND IF DONE FOR A GOOD PURPOSE , SUCH AS TO EAT OR REGULATE THE HERD TO PRESERVE THE ECOLOGY AND SELL THE MEAT ,IVORY AND HIDE TO HELP PAY FOR THE CONSERVATION AND ANTI POACHER PROGRAMS. SO I HOPE THIS POST CAN STAY COOL AND AVOID THE FATE OF ITS PREDECESORS AND EVERYONE CAN PUT IN HIS 2 CENTS WORTH.
NO GROSS PICTURES PLEASE

[rasdan]

I think most of the time the part that are annoying are not regarding differences of opinion but rather how the opinoin is being presented. Vandoo is one of the best examples available of an individual in this forum that gets his opinion through everytime and i dont recall he had ever offended anyone.

Personal interests of unknown reasons, using multiple nicknames, own ego and recurring "dreams" of previous controversy with some members are also the main contributor to the heat generated and this heat tends to develop frequently in (call it what u want) KERIS, Kris, Kriss. Great threads had developed to a bitter warfare for above reasons. If we study previous post, we can certainly say that many of our experienced members are keeping out of the discussions and we can safely assume that they are avoiding fruitless "battle" over a piece of bread here. Are we really on the winning side? (If winning is the most important thing in discussions). I dont think so.

[Ian]

Hi VANDOO.

I think rasdan has captured much of the concerns about some recent posts. The issues are not about censorship, but rather remaining courteous in our exchanges, and not posting extraneous materials that are offensive.

BTW, Forum policy requires that we not discuss Moderator's decisions. I've sent you a PM.

Ian.

[mykeris]

I agree with you Rasdan, definitely. I always take another option of not confronting to avoid friction that may lead to closure of thread. I will do my best to keep this forum alive and beneficial to me and the others.

Talking about keris, my opinion is best is to get as many natives to participate in this forum, at least the outside world would be able to learn or observe something that have not been circulated in outside world. I am sure Dave or Paul De Souza spent lots of money and time to learn, participate and witness in Indonesia and Malay Peninsular. However, this forum has made it possible for us to come nearer than ever.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Oh well while we are at it, I would like to see a clear policy. I must say it is a little surreal that a edged weapon forum thread could be closed by the description of the hunting of a fictional elephant, in a book that probably will be found in most high school libraries. Perhaps a little icon that indicates a thread may be graphic. Then again I really do not want this forum to be a gross out contest! good luck moderators!

Jeff

Hi Jeff. Candidly, I'm not sure we want any additional "formal" policies or rules. With regard to the posting of graphic photos, my personal opinion is that our membership should apply common sense, (something I'm confident most have) to avoid posting gratuitous or off-topic photos. It will then be up to the staff to determine if something should be removed.

I admit, this is a bit like the U.S. Supreme Court's analysis of "obscenity", but rather than a hard/fast rule, I'm more comfortable dealing with this on a case-by-case basis as "I know it when I see it".

Incidentally, I did not close the elephant thread because of the topic, heated debate, differences of opinion or the posting of ugly photos. I closed it because we (the staff) needed some time to discuss matters. Unfortunately, several threads were subsequently started about my decision to close it. In the wake of all this, I decided to let that sleeping dog stay where it was.

I'm going to request that we all now move forward. Those of us who are trying to moderate a discussion forum populated by intelligent, opinionated enthusiasts from many different countries and cultures are human beings also. Our goal is to encourage the exchange of information in a free and friendly environment. The rules and policies we implement and, at times, enforce, are to this end. Only that.

Andrew

[VANDOO]

THE JOB OF MODERATOR IS NOT ABOUT CENSORSHIP IT IS ABOUT KEEPING THE DISCUSSIONS PRODUCTIVE AND CIVIL. I FEEL THAT OUR MODERATORS DO A GOOD JOB AS THERE IS NO GUIDE BOOK ON HOW TO MODERATE AND IF THERE WERE IT WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE TO COVER EVERY CONTINGENCY. THIS LATEST PROBLEM HAS BEEN PRODUCTIVE IN THAT IT SHOWS HOW DIFFICULT THE JOB CAN BE AND THAT THE MODERATORS ARE PUTTING THEIR HEADS TOGETHER TO FIND A SOLUTION TO NEW AND UNFORSEEN PROBLEMS. IT MAKES SENSE TO CLOSE A TOPIC TO DISCUSS WHAT TO DO SO IT WON'T GET TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL AND PERHAPS CAUSE MEMBERS TO BECOME OFFENDED AND STOP PARTICIPATING. I JUST SAW PART OF WHAT WAS OCCURING AND HAD A OPINION TO EXPRESS SO MADE MY OWN PROTEST POST INSTEAD OF GETTING THE FACTS AND BEING PATIENT. I NEVER WAS ONE TO WAIT AROUND AND HAVEN'T BEEN FOLLOWING THE FORUM MUCH LATELY DUE TO OTHER CONCERNS SO WASN'T UP TO SPEED.
TODAYS SOCIETY IS DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE I GREW UP IN AND THANKS TO THE MEDIA AND KNOWING EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON IN OUR WORLD IT IS NOT AS COURTEOUS AND POLITE IN EXPRESSING ITS VIEWS. SOME GROUPS AND MEDIA TRY TO OFFEND,SHOCK, PROVOKE TROUBBLE AND BEAT YOU OVER THE HEAD WITH THEIR VIEWS WITH NO REGARD TO MANNERS, COUTERSY, GOOD TASTE OR ETHICS. UNFORTUNATELY THIS IN YOUR FACE MENTALITY HAS PASSED OVER INTO TODAYS SOCIETY AND MAKES CONFRONTATIONS MORE LIKELY AND COMMON. IF THE SOCIETY EVER GETS AS WARPED AS MANY OF THE PEOPLE FEATURED ON THE TELEVISION TALK SHOWS I WILL HAVE TO SEEK A REMOTE CAVE UP IN TOM HYLES PART OF THE COUNTRY FOR REFUGE

FUTURE NEWS (TROGLODITE FOUND LIVING IN MONTANA CAVE FULL OF SWORDS AND CLUBS )

[Jeff D]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. My problem is I am unclear as to where the elephant thread went wrong, and therefore unsure how to avoid going astray in the future. I missed Radu's photo's and am glad I did, but I feel the thread should have been reopened. I agree that it is upsetting, and should be dealt with sensitively, which is what was done until the photo's. So now I am confused, are we are are we not to discuss the use of these edged weapons that we collect?

Thanks and sorry for using up your time.
Jeff

[fearn]

Hi All,

The only thing I'd add to this discussion is that in the future, perhaps threads should not be locked pending a decision. I'm not sure that said discussion can happen fast enough to keep upsetting people.

Otherwise, given the size of this board and the number of moderators, I think a case-by-case policy is a good idea. This is an issue of scale: I was a moderator on a much larger board with more members, and due to the size and structure of the board, the lack of a clear set of moderator policies led to total chaos. I also got demoderated in part for pointing this out. I suspect there's a lesson there--no one administration structure fits all boards, and things should change as the board grows.

That's not a criticism. While I'm still scratching my head about that elephant thread, I'm happy with the way things are run here.

Fearn

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. My problem is I am unclear as to where the elephant thread went wrong, and therefore unsure how to avoid going astray in the future. I missed Radu's photo's and am glad I did, but I feel the thread should have been reopened. I agree that it is upsetting, and should be dealt with sensitively, which is what was done until the photo's. So now I am confused, are we are are we not to discuss the use of these edged weapons that we collect?

Thanks and sorry for using up your time.
Jeff

Jeff,

My mistake when closing that thread was that I didn't indicate why I was doing so at the time. Apparantly, my subsequent posts in both Conogre and GAC's threads were too cryptic.

In the future, when I close a thread, I will endeavor to advise the participants why, in the event my reasoning is not apparant from the thread itself.

The elephant thread went "wrong" when links to some photos were posted. Since the topic had the potential to overheat quickly, and since the posting of those links needed to be discussed by staff, I closed the thread.

As so many have pointed out, discussion of weapons cannot really take place in a vacuum. The use and effect of those weapons is certainly an appropriate subject of discussion. Provided such discussion is undertaken appropriately.

I'm not able to articulate it any better than that, I'm afraid. Gratuitious gore, incivility, trolling, and "stirring things up" will be handled as it comes.

Best,
Andrew

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Jeff,

My mistake when closing that thread was that I didn't indicate why I was doing so at the time. Apparantly, my subsequent posts in both Conogre and GAC's threads were too cryptic.

In the future, when I close a thread, I will endeavor to advise the participants why, in the event my reasoning is not apparant from the thread itself.

The elephant thread went "wrong" when links to some photos were posted. Since the topic had the potential to overheat quickly, and since the posting of those links needed to be discussed by staff, I closed the thread.

As so many have pointed out, discussion of weapons cannot really take place in a vacuum. The use and effect of those weapons is certainly an appropriate subject of discussion. Provided such discussion is undertaken appropriately.

I'm not able to articulate it any better than that, I'm afraid. Gratuitious gore, incivility, trolling, and "stirring things up" will be handled as it comes.

Best,
Andrew

Thanks Andrew, that would indeed have avoided some confusion.

PM Coming.
Jeff