On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

An article, "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en Cuba y Puerto Rico" by Juan L. Calvo (Sept. 2006) shows one of these fabricated in Toledo in 1856 but attributed to Cuba as 'de Guanabacoa'. I believe subsequent discussions revealed that this referred to a location in Cuba if I recall.

Jim, I am still not sold on the Brazilian attribution; some photos would be nice to see. I've read Juan Calvo's article on the Guanabacoa and other machetes, and saw, but was too slow to buy, a wonderful example at a gun show a couple of years back. It was of similar construction as the ones in Calvo's article, except the hilt was done in sterling silver with mother of pearland gold incrustations. It was a really high end piece.

Here are the photos of the one I have in my collection. Even though, like I said, it's not my area of collecting, this particular piece just oozes Colonial Latn America, and is very expressive, so it's on my wall for now. I have not been successful in finding anything on the blade-maker Breffit in my literature. Could be an Englishman who set up shop in Havana [or Rio, for that matter].

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dmitry,
I agree on specifying Brazil for the type overall based on one example with sound provenance, but I think it must be accepted that these striated shellguards are of Spanish attribution in locations included in its trade centers in the Caribbean, Florida, Central America and South America. I will see if I can get the photos of the Brazilian example to post.

Thanks for the photos of yours, one of the nicer examples I've seen, great motif. The name of the maker on mine was 'Isaac' I think, cant recall now but definitely British and was not found in British registers either. These guys may well have been importers of blades in these areas?

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Back to the topic of the mystery sabres, this one finished today on eBay. Hoepfully the buyer is someone from this forum:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

[Rick]

The scabbard appears to be very un-Spanish IMHO .
I can't think of a use for the terminal end ;it seems more tribally oriented .

[Jim McDougall]

The scabbard on these are very unusual, and the perpandicular projection is very much like the shotel scabbards seen in Spring. I am unclear on the purpose of the projection, and this seems atypical for anything in the Moroccan regions of North Africa, but the scabbard style seems consistant.

I have seen the 'South Seas'; Indonesian and Caribbean suggestions along with the standing 'Berber' attribution, which remains unsubstantiated.
As I have mentioned many times over the years, I have yet to see these represented in any collective material on weapons of Morocco and North Africa...it is as if they came out of nowhere!

Why the 'Ethiopian' (?) style scabbard, what is the upright extension at the tip for, why are the blades always profiled in this manner, what is the stylized 'flyssa'(?) type grip supposed to represent.

In my opinion, the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th century, and its trade routes that continued through the independence of Mexico from Spain, The Mexican-American War, and into the period of the Spanish American War, account for a myriad of the mysterious weapons that have been appearing in collections in recent times. Many of these are 'bringbacks' from the Spanish American War.
The 'Main' was prevalent in early 19th century in the Caribbean, Florida, Cuba, Mexico's gulf ports, Central America and South America....the outermost extension, the Philippines. To the East, the connections to Spain and its North African colonies are of course part of this vast network.

Most of these unusual weapons I have seen seem to have either Mexican provenance as far as appearing in groups of these weapons, or as items stated with Cuban or South American provenance.
I have often considered that it would be most tempting to suggest this unusual profile to the tip of these British or European military blades reminds me of the tip of the kampilan, free association at best, but still, seems plausible.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by TVV

From the pictrues and the description, there appears to be a letter M on the hilt and the base of the blade, which I guess would be unusual for a Berber, wouldn't it?

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Whoa! Jeff you are amazing!!! Thats gotta be it, fits perfect as far as I can see. Never even thought of that, so once again the Spanish colonial presence is suggested.

All the best,
Jim

[Wodimi]

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Wodimi

only a thought.......the Berber at the north coast of Morocco once are well known as formidable Riff pirates. For me this sword is a perfect pirate cutlass. Not so long as a Flyssa or Nimcha, which would not work in a close combat. Also perfect to cut ropes and last not least very similar to other pirate swords. I have also one of such swords and in my records I wrote "Riff Berber".
The last Riff pirates are massacred in 1898 by troops of the Sultan from Morocco.

Wolf

www.spearcollector.com

Exactly Wolf, thats what these were once thought to be about when I got mine back c. 1995, and the Rif was the attribution. However as these began to turn up over the years, no substantiation for this could be found. I think what did it for me was a discussion with several colleagues, including Dominique Buttin (whose Grandfather Charles lived in Morocco, and whose weapon collections from these regions are quite comprehensive), and the consensus seemed to agree likely Spanish colonial regions.

Actually, these heavy blades and the guardless hilts, as well as the opening which may well be for lanyard or sword knot, seem to lend well to the idea of machetes, which were a utility weapon prevalent in many of the colonies.
The Spanish colonial espada ancha (= wide heavy blade) in Mexico's frontiers eventually developed into a machete type weapon as well, in areas of heavy desert vegetation. In northern regions of plains it became more of a hunting/Bowie knife.

It also would be hard to imagine that these might not have appealed to the famed Barbary Pirates in certain cases, as they were certainly present in those days of the Spanish Main, just as you have noted Wolf.

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Teodor,

Could the letters seen be part of the 'Spanish Motto'?

Jeff

Jeff,
I thought I saw the same thing, as there seems to be an O before the M, which fits nicely with the motto. Without having the sword at hand, I can only agree that this is most likely traces from the popular Spanish motto.
By now, there is plenty of evidence which suggests that these sabres are indeed Spanish colonial weapons, but as Jim keep pointing out, Spain had a lot of colonies.
I am uploading the auction pictures here for future reference.
Thank you Jeff, Jim and Wolf,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Marc

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Thank you very much for confirming that the Barcelona Miliatry Museum is closed, so that I can plan my vacation properly.
Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Teodor, the term ´colonial´seems to be very laxus. The greek and cartaghinean colonies were only cities established as commercial settlements. They were nearer from the metropili than the balkans from Istambul, or at least there were similar distances. The idea of settlements established by a conqueror in other continent, is similar, since Africa and the Balkans are not in the same continent as the Ottoman metropoli. But in all case, I was not intending a precise comparison, it was just a reference.

Maybe I passed without looking the dimensions of those sabres. In some way the description from Ariel evoked to me, in my quick reading, a cavalry-like image, but it was my mistake. This is the reason why I feel important to know the exact measures of the weapons exposed in this forum, and also the weight, point of balance, thickness, geometry of the blade, etc.

In relation with the sabre: my feeling is that those sabre were made, among others, with european blades, and with the references form the spanish and french museums, I am inclined to think that the best hypothesis, in view of the available evidences, is that those sabres were more probably north african. I can add no more, since all the references I can find in internet point in this direction. I have not bibliography over the subject, but as soon I have more information I will writte to you.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Marc]

Originally Posted by TVV

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?

Uh.... no. Not really. Nothing really worth going out of your way just for the weapons themselves. To be sincere, Barcelona has a lot of unique and wonderful places to visit, including a lot of excellent museums. My reccomendation is that you enjoy your visit and wait to go elsewhere (Madrid, for example) to see remarkable arms and armour collections (specially european).

On the other hand, aside from the most usual touristic routes, if you happen to have some spare time, you might want to try the Ethnological Museum or even the the Maritime Museum , out of curiosity, if you like the subject (a 1:1 scale reproduction of a 16th c. galley, anyone? ).