Mysterious Markings on a Kaskara...

stephen wood · 19th July 2009, 09:59 PM

This marking really is a new one on me...

It's not a stamp - it's engraved so not a maker's mark. Identical on both sides.

The sword is a quite heavy-bladed one, doesn't seem that old but as you can see, a particularly nice crossguard.

Any ideas about the curious mark?

katana · 19th July 2009, 11:56 PM

Hi Stephen,
this mark is familiar....I'm not certain ...but I think this marking was on a formite's sudanese arm dagger and related to the Madhist uprising. Hopefully someone will clarify

Regards David

colin henshaw · 20th July 2009, 01:35 PM

Hi

To let you know that one of the kaskaras in a post I made some time ago, has a very similar engraved mark. (Don't know its meaning).

Regards

katana · 20th July 2009, 02:39 PM

Is that a worn 'half moon' mark (circled) ?

Regards David

.

stephen wood · 20th July 2009, 03:23 PM

...yes it does look like a crescent moon. I now think that the marking represents a comet - significant in the lore surrounding the appearance of the Mahdi (Nigmet al Mahdi) and also appearing during the siege of Khartoum.

I would be very interested to see any similar images - I couldn't find the one posted by Colin...

colin henshaw · 20th July 2009, 04:16 PM

Hi Stephen

Here are some images...

Regards
Colin

stephen wood · 20th July 2009, 07:22 PM

...they are the same. Many thanks for posting the images - one of the group of four that you posted before?

It's especially interesting that they seem to be of the same type - quite broad with a short fuller. In the case of mine the fuller seems to have been cut - and not very well.

What about the comet theory? What else might it represent?

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2009, 08:42 PM

Hi Stephen,
I am always impressed at the astounding ability you have if finding remarkable examples of kaskara! This one is, of course, quite intriguing, especially because of yet another strange marking. It is always amplified by the appearance of a corroborating mark of the same kind found on the same type weapon, naturally suggesting the same workshop.

We have encountered other examples with corroborative marks here, I think both Rick and Charles I think have examples with a horned disc type mark at the forte on kaskaras they hold. If I recall, the marks are stamped but only appear obverse, not on both sides. These I have taken for possibly arsenal marks. I have one as well but am trying to find the photos.

The strange geometric device on this example appears, as noted, on both sides (I dont know if Colin's was on both sides), and occurs near the forte. I have seen kaskara with a bird type mark more to mid blade as well (again do not recall if both sides).
I feel that application of these markings at that location on the blade would be more likely to have either talismanic or invocative meanings. These are certainly native blades and clearly do not reflect the more common interpretation of the familiar European trade blades.

On Stephens example, there does seem to be traces of a dukari (crescent moon device) within the geometric, well worn away. While the suggestion of a comet is indeed significant in Muslim history as preceeding monumental events, I am not yet certain that this marking would lend to that perspective, though the stylized disc with tail is certainly compelling.

The dukari, or crescent moon, is of course familiar to us as the paired moons which seem to occur consistantly on the native blades of the Saharan takouba. We know they do occur on occasion of kaskara blades, and presume these are most likely from Hausa smiths (Briggs).

I think it will take some looking into Sudanese art and cultural symbolism to learn more on this marking, and quite possibly finding more on symbols reflecting a comet.

Absolutely fascinating marking!

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 22nd July 2009, 10:05 PM

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

No... beware! this.... this.... this.... IS THE MARK OF CTULHU!

And it is calling.... noooo, noooo. God help as alll, we are doomed....

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

No... beware! this.... this.... this.... IS THE MARK OF CTULHU!

And it is calling.... noooo, noooo. God help as alll, we are doomed....

Oh good grief!!!!!!

And here I was nervous about quoting Conan on the science fiction channel ...er thread....on futuristic blades.....then this!!
Is there some strange mist emanating from our keyboards????

trenchwarfare · 23rd July 2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Oh good grief!!!!!!

And here I was nervous about quoting Conan on the science fiction channel ...er thread....on futuristic blades.....then this!!
Is there some strange mist emanating from our keyboards????

Cough... Cough... Arghhhhhh______________________________

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 01:04 PM

Actually Lovecraft was always one of my favorites, and this really is a superb quote.......nicely done Valjhun

The more I look at these marks, they really do seem to be ultra stylized symbols that may be a comet. Now I wonder if other examples of material culture of the Mahdist period with like symbolism....and hopefully that arm dagger David mentioned.

All best regards,
Jim

Marc · 24th July 2009, 12:08 PM

And the only thing standing between them and us is... is... !!

Err...

¿Wilkinson?

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

And the only thing standing between them and us is... is... !!

Err...

¿Wilkinson?

OK Marc ! Have you had the Cirlot out again ???!!!

LOL
Coincidentally, in recent discussion with Robert Wilkinson-Latham about the star, he noted the clarification that the symbol on the proof plug surround was not actually the six point star, but superimposed triangles. While this had to do with the Star of Solomon in that it is the same arrangement, it had more to do with the earlier symbolism representing double strength, in the sense often construed with the triangle and strength.

Its always great to hear from you Marc!!!

All the best,
Jim

Marc · 27th July 2009, 01:08 PM

Is even better to have you all doing such a good work around here, Jim

And, regarding the Wilkinson symbol... he may say what he wants (and I actually happened to know that particular tidbit of information, casually... mainly from YOU mentioning it in a former discussion, by the way), but people will see a Solomon's Seal or a David's Star, there, no matter what.
Which should make us wonder how far we can go regarding ciertainty when trying to extricate the meaning of a symbol appearing in an ethnographic piece from a cultural and historical context that sometimes is as alien to us as in our imagination might be good ole' Cthulhu itself...

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

Is even better to have you all doing such a good work around here, Jim

And, regarding the Wilkinson symbol... he may say what he wants (and I actually happened to know that particular tidbit of information, casually... mainly from YOU mentioning it in a former discussion, by the way), but people will see a Solomon's Seal or a David's Star, there, no matter what.
Which should make us wonder how far we can go regarding ciertainty when trying to extricate the meaning of a symbol appearing in an ethnographic piece from a cultural and historical context that sometimes is as alien to us as in our imagination might be good ole' Cthulhu itself...

Extremely well said Marc!!! That is the difficulty of studying symbolism in any case, understanding the context historically at the time the weapon or item was used. Often;
"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen,
and thinking what nobody else has thought".
-Albert Szent-Gyorgy

and the Cthulhu analogy is absolutely perfect!

Thank you as always for the kind words, and please visit here more often OK.
Your insight on the weapons we discuss is key to better understanding of them, and the knowledge you share very much part of what we are trying to accomplish.

All the best,
Jim

stephen wood · 27th July 2009, 06:24 PM

Actually I saw a kaskara on ebay recently with an inlaid star on the blade. It was a quite rough looking blade, not imported - more like what you might expect on an average takouba (in terms of quality).

Did anyone else see it?

I saw a "bird" recently and a "crown" which might actually be a "comet"...

I'm still not sure about the mysterious marking on my blade - did the arsenal at Omdurman have a marking?

colin henshaw · 28th July 2009, 05:42 PM

Most interesting topic. I can't really add anything much to whats already been said...

The comet ? marking on my kaskara is identical on both sides of the blade. Interesting that both comet ? markings are on the same type of kaskara, with the short single fuller. Could this imply it is some type of maker's mark ? Why would the engraving have that rectangular type protrusion at the top ?

Here are some close-ups of markings on one of my other kaskaras...
star, sun and moon, identical on both sides of the blade. That diagonal line space filling seems typical.

Regards

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2009, 07:05 PM

Its great to get the discussion going toward these symbolic markings, and to see collectively the variations that seem to be found on these kaskara blades. It seems that in many, if not most cases, the celestial decoration on kaskara blades seem to represent these symbolic markings seen on the 'talismanic' blades of Europe which often found thier way to North Africa in trade.
Most of these are reasonably recognizable in the star, the sun figure and the 'man in the moon'. Since such celestial themes are often key to many tenets of folk religion and its symbolism, it would seem they were readily adopted by native armourers.
The comet idea is compelling, and the two examples of the unusual stylized shape are of a form I've not seen before. It is interesting to see the different markings found on these kaskara blades, and Stephen, I think I have seen the bird image you mentioned, but not the star (the pentagram type?).

I really am not aware of an arsenal mark for Omdurman, but it would be interesting to discover more on that. I have always thought that most of the thuluth application on the Mahdist weapons was done there, but do not recall any significant marks on these various weapons that might suggest such an arsenal marking.

The only marking I have taken for an actual arsenal mark is the horned disc seen on the kaskara I think Rick posted, near the langet, and I have seen on at least two others. It seems reasonably certain these kaskara with this mark are from Darfur, and may be associated with Sultan Ali Dinar. Darfur was not extensively participative in the Mahdist movement, and Ali Dinar was the last Sultan of Darfur, and of the period up to the First World War.

Colin, good observation on that diagonal line space filling.

I hope we can keep the discussion going on these kaskara markings. While we have of course had a great run on European sword blade markings, which of course apply here in many cases indirectly, it would be great to learn more on the native applications.

All best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 2nd August 2009, 09:31 PM

Hi All,

Sorry about jumping in late on this one. While I personally feel it looks like the Philadelphia Flyer symbol, Dr Lloyd Cabot Briggs shows a couple examples of this mark on Tuareg swords.( The Journal of The Arms and Armour Society Vol. V No. 2, European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers ) Sample B belonged to a Tuareg Chief from Air, Sample C belonged to a noble of the Kel Rela tribe of Ahaggar. He comments that they appeared locally applied and seem to be over older European marks. He has no idea of their meaning.

All the Best
Jeff

Rick · 2nd August 2009, 10:10 PM

Hi Jim,

Just a late comment on the marking on my Kaskara; it is struck into both sides of the blade .

stephen wood · 10th August 2009, 01:31 PM

...so the marking that Briggs recorded on takoubas have turned up on kaskaras and some of them correspond to Palme's mid-19th century description.

19th July 2009, 09:59 PM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Mysterious Markings on a Kaskara... This marking really is a new one on me... It's not a stamp - it's engraved so not a maker's mark. Identical on both sides. The sword is a quite heavy-bladed one, doesn't seem that old but as you can see, a particularly nice crossguard. Any ideas about the curious mark? Attached Images

20th July 2009, 02:39 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Is that a worn 'half moon' mark (circled) ? Regards David . Attached Images

20th July 2009, 03:23 PM	#5
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...yes it does look like a crescent moon. I now think that the marking represents a comet - significant in the lore surrounding the appearance of the Mahdi (Nigmet al Mahdi) and also appearing during the siege of Khartoum. I would be very interested to see any similar images - I couldn't find the one posted by Colin... Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 20th July 2009 at 03:41 PM.

20th July 2009, 04:16 PM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Stephen Here are some images... Regards Colin Attached Images

22nd July 2009, 08:42 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Stephen, I am always impressed at the astounding ability you have if finding remarkable examples of kaskara! This one is, of course, quite intriguing, especially because of yet another strange marking. It is always amplified by the appearance of a corroborating mark of the same kind found on the same type weapon, naturally suggesting the same workshop. We have encountered other examples with corroborative marks here, I think both Rick and Charles I think have examples with a horned disc type mark at the forte on kaskaras they hold. If I recall, the marks are stamped but only appear obverse, not on both sides. These I have taken for possibly arsenal marks. I have one as well but am trying to find the photos. The strange geometric device on this example appears, as noted, on both sides (I dont know if Colin's was on both sides), and occurs near the forte. I have seen kaskara with a bird type mark more to mid blade as well (again do not recall if both sides). I feel that application of these markings at that location on the blade would be more likely to have either talismanic or invocative meanings. These are certainly native blades and clearly do not reflect the more common interpretation of the familiar European trade blades. On Stephens example, there does seem to be traces of a dukari (crescent moon device) within the geometric, well worn away. While the suggestion of a comet is indeed significant in Muslim history as preceeding monumental events, I am not yet certain that this marking would lend to that perspective, though the stylized disc with tail is certainly compelling. The dukari, or crescent moon, is of course familiar to us as the paired moons which seem to occur consistantly on the native blades of the Saharan takouba. We know they do occur on occasion of kaskara blades, and presume these are most likely from Hausa smiths (Briggs). I think it will take some looking into Sudanese art and cultural symbolism to learn more on this marking, and quite possibly finding more on symbols reflecting a comet. Absolutely fascinating marking! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd July 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason: wording

19th July 2009, 11:56 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Stephen, this mark is familiar....I'm not certain ...but I think this marking was on a formite's sudanese arm dagger and related to the Madhist uprising. Hopefully someone will clarify Regards David

20th July 2009, 01:35 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi To let you know that one of the kaskaras in a post I made some time ago, has a very similar engraved mark. (Don't know its meaning). Regards

20th July 2009, 07:22 PM	#7
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...they are the same. Many thanks for posting the images - one of the group of four that you posted before? It's especially interesting that they seem to be of the same type - quite broad with a short fuller. In the case of mine the fuller seems to have been cut - and not very well. What about the *comet* theory? What else might it represent?

22nd July 2009, 10:05 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn." No... beware! this.... this.... this.... IS THE MARK OF CTULHU! And it is calling.... noooo, noooo. God help as alll, we are doomed.... Attached Images

23rd July 2009, 01:04 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Actually Lovecraft was always one of my favorites, and this really is a superb quote.......nicely done Valjhun The more I look at these marks, they really do seem to be ultra stylized symbols that may be a comet. Now I wonder if other examples of material culture of the Mahdist period with like symbolism....and hopefully that arm dagger David mentioned. All best regards, Jim

24th July 2009, 12:08 PM	#13
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	And the only thing standing between them and us is... is... !! Err... ¿Wilkinson?

27th July 2009, 01:08 PM	#15
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Is even better to have you all doing such a good work around here, Jim And, regarding the Wilkinson symbol... he may say what he wants (and I actually happened to know that particular tidbit of information, casually... mainly from YOU mentioning it in a former discussion, by the way), but people will see a Solomon's Seal or a David's Star, there, no matter what. Which should make us wonder how far we can go regarding ciertainty when trying to extricate the meaning of a symbol appearing in an ethnographic piece from a cultural and historical context that sometimes is as alien to us as in our imagination might be good ole' Cthulhu itself...

27th July 2009, 06:24 PM	#17
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Actually I saw a kaskara on ebay recently with an inlaid star on the blade. It was a quite rough looking blade, not imported - more like what you might expect on an average takouba (in terms of quality). Did anyone else see it? I saw a "bird" recently and a "crown" which might actually be a "comet"... I'm still not sure about the mysterious marking on my blade - did the arsenal at Omdurman have a marking?

28th July 2009, 05:42 PM	#18
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Most interesting topic. I can't really add anything much to whats already been said... The comet ? marking on my kaskara is identical on both sides of the blade. Interesting that both comet ? markings are on the same type of kaskara, with the short single fuller. Could this imply it is some type of maker's mark ? Why would the engraving have that rectangular type protrusion at the top ? Here are some close-ups of markings on one of my other kaskaras... star, sun and moon, identical on both sides of the blade. That diagonal line space filling seems typical. Regards Attached Images

28th July 2009, 07:05 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Its great to get the discussion going toward these symbolic markings, and to see collectively the variations that seem to be found on these kaskara blades. It seems that in many, if not most cases, the celestial decoration on kaskara blades seem to represent these symbolic markings seen on the 'talismanic' blades of Europe which often found thier way to North Africa in trade. Most of these are reasonably recognizable in the star, the sun figure and the 'man in the moon'. Since such celestial themes are often key to many tenets of folk religion and its symbolism, it would seem they were readily adopted by native armourers. The comet idea is compelling, and the two examples of the unusual stylized shape are of a form I've not seen before. It is interesting to see the different markings found on these kaskara blades, and Stephen, I think I have seen the bird image you mentioned, but not the star (the pentagram type?). I really am not aware of an arsenal mark for Omdurman, but it would be interesting to discover more on that. I have always thought that most of the thuluth application on the Mahdist weapons was done there, but do not recall any significant marks on these various weapons that might suggest such an arsenal marking. The only marking I have taken for an actual arsenal mark is the horned disc seen on the kaskara I think Rick posted, near the langet, and I have seen on at least two others. It seems reasonably certain these kaskara with this mark are from Darfur, and may be associated with Sultan Ali Dinar. Darfur was not extensively participative in the Mahdist movement, and Ali Dinar was the last Sultan of Darfur, and of the period up to the First World War. Colin, good observation on that diagonal line space filling. I hope we can keep the discussion going on these kaskara markings. While we have of course had a great run on European sword blade markings, which of course apply here in many cases indirectly, it would be great to learn more on the native applications. All best regards, Jim

2nd August 2009, 09:31 PM	#20
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, Sorry about jumping in late on this one. While I personally feel it looks like the Philadelphia Flyer symbol, Dr Lloyd Cabot Briggs shows a couple examples of this mark on Tuareg swords.( The Journal of The Arms and Armour Society Vol. V No. 2, European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers ) Sample B belonged to a Tuareg Chief from Air, Sample C belonged to a noble of the Kel Rela tribe of Ahaggar. He comments that they appeared locally applied and seem to be over older European marks. He has no idea of their meaning. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

2nd August 2009, 10:10 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Jim, Just a late comment on the marking on my Kaskara; it is struck into both sides of the blade .

10th August 2009, 01:31 PM	#22
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...so the marking that Briggs recorded on takoubas have turned up on kaskaras and some of them correspond to Palme's mid-19th century description.