Poisoned Blades: Fact and Fiction

VANDOO · 20th July 2009, 03:37 PM

POSIONS WERE CERTIANLY USED IN EUROPEAN COURTS AND WERE MORE FREQUENTLY USED IN ORIENTAL COURTS BUT WERE USUALLY ADMINISTERED IN FOOD ,DRINKS OR IN A PERSONS CLOTHES OR BED. MOST OF THE TIME THE POSIONER INTENDED TO LIVE AND BENNIFIT FROM THE DEATH AND SOME POOR UNKNOWING SERVANT USUALLY TOOK THE BLAME AND WAS KILLED.

ON THE TRIBAL LEVEL WITCH DOCTORS OR SHAMEN SOMETIMES USED POISONS TO REMOVE A RIVAL OR SOMEONE WHO HAD INSULTED THEM. THAT ALSO INCREASED THEIR POWER BY MAKEING THE PEOPLE FEAR THEM. POSIONED DEFENSES AROUND VILLAGES HAVE BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME THE PUNJI STAKE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE IT IS AND WAS USED IN MODERN TIMES AND IS THE SAME NOW AS IT WAS IN THE DISTANT PAST.

AS TO ITS USE ON A BLADE THE ONLY SECNARIOS I CAN THINK OF ARE.
IF AN ASSASIN OR A PERSON WAS TRYING TO KILL A PERSON FOR REVENGE WHO WAS WELL GAURDED OR THAT HE COULD NEVER DEFEAT IN BATTLE AND HE WOULD SURELY BE KILLED. THEN A WEAPON WITH POSION WOULD BE OF MORE USE, ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IS WOUND YOUR VICTIM AND YOU WOULD AT LEAST HAVE EITHER DONE YOUR JOB OR GOTTEN YOUR REVENGE ON THEM THRU THE POISON. IT WOULD ALSO BE A GOOD IDEA TO CUT YOURSELF SO YOU COULD NOT BE TORTURED FOR VERY LONG.
BUT FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT A PROJECTILE WEAPON, TRAP OR ADMINISTERED AS MENTIONED ABOVE IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH IS BEST.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 10:29 PM

Thanks so much for the excellent responses guys! as always wonderfully dimensional perspective and ideas. After reading these my curiosity compels me further and I found the following which speaks to the notes on the fear of poisoning as well as which might have been used.

From "The Advance and the Poisoners of Elizabethan Tragedy"
Fredson Bowers
In 'Journal of English and Germanic Philology' 36, (1937) p.491-504

Referenced in "Scandal of Images" Margaret A.Tassi (2005) in notes, p.231

Bowers discusses the use of contact poisons, and that the 'king of Renaissance poisons' was certainly arsenic, often obtained in the form of 'ratsbane' and the ingenious devices for dispensation such as the poisoned knife blade or often ring.
"...regarding Elizabethan fear of poisons he cites Sir Edward Coke, who wrote in 1602 that poison, 'as hath been said, the most horrible and fearful to the nature of man'."

It seems that this clearly much networked reference from the 1937 work as well as reference to the quote from 1602, suggests that poisoning in weapons, though an element of drama , was indeed probably a reality of some presence.

Interesting observations and descriptions concerning the physiological aspects of poisons and how they might have manifested in use, I think we have a pretty good forensics panel here!! Outstanding, compelling, and indeed a bit scary

I think the fears were absolutely well placed.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 21st July 2009, 09:55 PM

Intresting subject.
I find myself thinking of the 'most famous' example of using a blade as a delivery system for poison, the dagger with the serpent on one side and the cutting of the apple. I believe this would be an effective way of administering a lethal dose as long as the 'assasiin' was careful in the cutting of course.
Essentially I can easily believe that a blade could effectively administer poison, but unless the substance was something akin to essence of poison arrow frog, I cant see even a fairly good cut influenceing a fight. And a really deep thrust should do its own work.
However! As a secondary effect, its a different matter.
If fast acting is not a factor, then poisoned traps can be very effective.
How about 'punji sticks'?
I find myself thinking of the narrow holes, calf deep with bamboo sticks at 45 degrees so that an emeny impales his leg when pulling it out.
Didn't the Viet-Cong smear them with faeces, which would guarantee the need for immediate evac and medical treatment to avoid very unpleasant infection?
In fact isn't the term 'punji stick' an old one from India?
I do realise sharpened bambo is not exactly a blade, but the idea might take the thread in a new direction.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2009, 11:39 PM

Good observations Gene, and while I cannot think of a blade with serpent suggesting poison as far as the marking, the Tanjore katars with the cobra projecting from the bottom of the hilt suggesting poisoned blade seems plausible.

The punji stakes are a grim example of rather crude, but effective use of biological poison. I think the term is SE Asian and these are known by about late 19th century, but of course notoriously known from Vietnam later.

In "Magic, Murder and Medicine" (John Mann, 1992, p.23) found more on what type of poison may have been used on medieval blades. It is noted that, "...aconite was also the most widely used arrow poison in medieval Europe, and was still in use in the Iberian Peninsula as late as the 17th c.".
Apparantly aconite was used as early as ancient Greece, and may have been the poison used as early as the arrow poisons described in the 'Rig Veda".

It seems the use of poisons on arrows was primarily for hunting, in tribal regions of South America, where the poisons used were from plant extracts that were not likely to be absorbed enough or in a manner to taint the meat. These seem to have been prepared in graduated measure, noted by one tree, two tree or three tree reference....the interesting use of the term tree indicating how many trees a wounded monkey could jump impacted by the poison. The three tree would enable live capture of the animal. These poisons seem to have been variants of curare, known to Europe esoterically by the 16th century, but certainly not widely known until latter 19th century. The poison is used in one of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries.

In Africa, there are deadly poisons such as strophanthus gratus , reported by Livingston that could 'stop an elephant', again a 19th century account.

It would seem that aconite may have been the poison present in the blades of late medieval to Renaissance Europe. Perhaps more research will tell more.

All best regards,
Jim

fearn · 23rd July 2009, 12:55 AM

Actually, since I've got a cut that I'm keeping clean right now, I did have a non-random thought.

In the long run, the purpose of poisoning a blade is to kill someone. But in the short run (i.e. in a fight) it might be equally useful to put an irritant on the blade, so that even a minor nick hurts like iodine...excuse me...blazes. Sorry that slipped out

Anyway, the flinch from getting hit by an irritant (toxic or not) might be useful in a fight.

Just a thought. Guess it shows where my mind is when I'm swapping out a bandage.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Actually, since I've got a cut that I'm keeping clean right now, I did have a non-random thought.

In the long run, the purpose of poisoning a blade is to kill someone. But in the short run (i.e. in a fight) it might be equally useful to put an irritant on the blade, so that even a minor nick hurts like iodine...excuse me...blazes. Sorry that slipped out

Anyway, the flinch from getting hit by an irritant (toxic or not) might be useful in a fight.

Just a thought. Guess it shows where my mind is when I'm swapping out a bandage.

Best,

F

Hi Fearn,
Actually that tactic is something actually used in certain degree in various combat with edged weapons, and distracting wounds were often part of the strategy. I believe in fencing, that is actual duelling, there is a slashing cut termed the stramazone (if memory serves) which ideally on the forehead, causes bleeding into the eyes. Other cuts to the wrist (in Scottish broadswords) or sword arm were obviously to disable the opponent.

The only thing that would diminish the prospect of pain as a distraction in edged weapon combat would be that the adrenalin would pretty much negate that particular dynamic. It seems in any type of heated combat, one is often entirely unaware of many key wounds which are not realized until the action subsides.

You are right though, there is a merciful numbing of pain in major wounds in most cases in normal circumstances, but a minor accidental cut without the presence of adrenalin.....ouch!!!!

Be careful when you're playin' with those blades!!

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 23rd July 2009, 09:19 PM

Hi Jim,

While I can't speak to the effect of irritants on blades, I do know that tear gas and pepper spray are routinely used in combat situations. Yes, they are blinders, but they are primarily irritants. The point of the irritant is to make someone pay attention to their wounds, even involuntarily. I don't know of any human deliberately putting irritants on blades, but it's certainly the effect of things like wasp-stings. Wasp venom ( and probably bee venom, depending on species) is full of things like histamine that cause pain as well as tissue damage. Very little wasp venom is needed to get you to notice that you've been stung.

In any case, if this wasn't part of the reason they used to poison blades, maybe in the future, martial artists will start putting capsaicin and histamine concoctions on their "less lethal" weapons, or some such...Hmmmm.

F

20th July 2009, 03:37 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	POSIONS WERE CERTIANLY USED IN EUROPEAN COURTS AND WERE MORE FREQUENTLY USED IN ORIENTAL COURTS BUT WERE USUALLY ADMINISTERED IN FOOD ,DRINKS OR IN A PERSONS CLOTHES OR BED. MOST OF THE TIME THE POSIONER INTENDED TO LIVE AND BENNIFIT FROM THE DEATH AND SOME POOR UNKNOWING SERVANT USUALLY TOOK THE BLAME AND WAS KILLED. ON THE TRIBAL LEVEL WITCH DOCTORS OR SHAMEN SOMETIMES USED POISONS TO REMOVE A RIVAL OR SOMEONE WHO HAD INSULTED THEM. THAT ALSO INCREASED THEIR POWER BY MAKEING THE PEOPLE FEAR THEM. POSIONED DEFENSES AROUND VILLAGES HAVE BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME THE PUNJI STAKE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE IT IS AND WAS USED IN MODERN TIMES AND IS THE SAME NOW AS IT WAS IN THE DISTANT PAST. AS TO ITS USE ON A BLADE THE ONLY SECNARIOS I CAN THINK OF ARE. IF AN ASSASIN OR A PERSON WAS TRYING TO KILL A PERSON FOR REVENGE WHO WAS WELL GAURDED OR THAT HE COULD NEVER DEFEAT IN BATTLE AND HE WOULD SURELY BE KILLED. THEN A WEAPON WITH POSION WOULD BE OF MORE USE, ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IS WOUND YOUR VICTIM AND YOU WOULD AT LEAST HAVE EITHER DONE YOUR JOB OR GOTTEN YOUR REVENGE ON THEM THRU THE POISON. IT WOULD ALSO BE A GOOD IDEA TO CUT YOURSELF SO YOU COULD NOT BE TORTURED FOR VERY LONG. BUT FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT A PROJECTILE WEAPON, TRAP OR ADMINISTERED AS MENTIONED ABOVE IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH IS BEST.

20th July 2009, 10:29 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,901	Thanks so much for the excellent responses guys! as always wonderfully dimensional perspective and ideas. After reading these my curiosity compels me further and I found the following which speaks to the notes on the fear of poisoning as well as which might have been used. From "The Advance and the Poisoners of Elizabethan Tragedy" Fredson Bowers In 'Journal of English and Germanic Philology' 36, (1937) p.491-504 Referenced in "Scandal of Images" Margaret A.Tassi (2005) in notes, p.231 Bowers discusses the use of contact poisons, and that the 'king of Renaissance poisons' was certainly arsenic, often obtained in the form of 'ratsbane' and the ingenious devices for dispensation such as the poisoned knife blade or often ring. "...regarding Elizabethan fear of poisons he cites Sir Edward Coke, who wrote in 1602 that poison, 'as hath been said, the most horrible and fearful to the nature of man'." It seems that this clearly much networked reference from the 1937 work as well as reference to the quote from 1602, suggests that poisoning in weapons, though an element of drama , was indeed probably a reality of some presence. Interesting observations and descriptions concerning the physiological aspects of poisons and how they might have manifested in use, I think we have a pretty good forensics panel here!! Outstanding, compelling, and indeed a bit scary I think the fears were absolutely well placed. All best regards, Jim

21st July 2009, 09:55 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Intresting subject. I find myself thinking of the 'most famous' example of using a blade as a delivery system for poison, the dagger with the serpent on one side and the cutting of the apple. I believe this would be an effective way of administering a lethal dose as long as the 'assasiin' was careful in the cutting of course. Essentially I can easily believe that a blade could effectively administer poison, but unless the substance was something akin to essence of poison arrow frog, I cant see even a fairly good cut influenceing a fight. And a really deep thrust should do its own work. However! As a secondary effect, its a different matter. If fast acting is not a factor, then poisoned traps can be very effective. How about 'punji sticks'? I find myself thinking of the narrow holes, calf deep with bamboo sticks at 45 degrees so that an emeny impales his leg when pulling it out. Didn't the Viet-Cong smear them with faeces, which would guarantee the need for immediate evac and medical treatment to avoid very unpleasant infection? In fact isn't the term 'punji stick' an old one from India? I do realise sharpened bambo is not exactly a blade, but the idea might take the thread in a new direction.

22nd July 2009, 11:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,901	Good observations Gene, and while I cannot think of a blade with serpent suggesting poison as far as the marking, the Tanjore katars with the cobra projecting from the bottom of the hilt suggesting poisoned blade seems plausible. The punji stakes are a grim example of rather crude, but effective use of biological poison. I think the term is SE Asian and these are known by about late 19th century, but of course notoriously known from Vietnam later. In "Magic, Murder and Medicine" (John Mann, 1992, p.23) found more on what type of poison may have been used on medieval blades. It is noted that, "...aconite was also the most widely used arrow poison in medieval Europe, and was still in use in the Iberian Peninsula as late as the 17th c.". Apparantly aconite was used as early as ancient Greece, and may have been the poison used as early as the arrow poisons described in the 'Rig Veda". It seems the use of poisons on arrows was primarily for hunting, in tribal regions of South America, where the poisons used were from plant extracts that were not likely to be absorbed enough or in a manner to taint the meat. These seem to have been prepared in graduated measure, noted by one tree, two tree or three tree reference....the interesting use of the term tree indicating how many trees a wounded monkey could jump impacted by the poison. The three tree would enable live capture of the animal. These poisons seem to have been variants of curare, known to Europe esoterically by the 16th century, but certainly not widely known until latter 19th century. The poison is used in one of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries. In Africa, there are deadly poisons such as strophanthus gratus , reported by Livingston that could 'stop an elephant', again a 19th century account. It would seem that aconite may have been the poison present in the blades of late medieval to Renaissance Europe. Perhaps more research will tell more. All best regards, Jim

23rd July 2009, 12:55 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Actually, since I've got a cut that I'm keeping clean right now, I did have a non-random thought. In the long run, the purpose of poisoning a blade is to kill someone. But in the short run (i.e. in a fight) it might be equally useful to put an irritant on the blade, so that even a minor nick hurts like iodine...excuse me...blazes. Sorry that slipped out Anyway, the flinch from getting hit by an irritant (toxic or not) might be useful in a fight. Just a thought. Guess it shows where my mind is when I'm swapping out a bandage. Best, F

23rd July 2009, 09:19 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, While I can't speak to the effect of irritants on blades, I do know that tear gas and pepper spray are routinely used in combat situations. Yes, they are blinders, but they are primarily irritants. The point of the irritant is to make someone pay attention to their wounds, even involuntarily. I don't know of any human deliberately putting irritants on blades, but it's certainly the effect of things like wasp-stings. Wasp venom ( and probably bee venom, depending on species) is full of things like histamine that cause pain as well as tissue damage. Very little wasp venom is needed to get you to notice that you've been stung. In any case, if this wasn't part of the reason they used to poison blades, maybe in the future, martial artists will start putting capsaicin and histamine concoctions on their "less lethal" weapons, or some such...Hmmmm. F