Mysterious Markings on a Kaskara...

colin henshaw · 20th July 2009, 04:16 PM

Hi Stephen

Here are some images...

Regards
Colin

stephen wood · 20th July 2009, 07:22 PM

...they are the same. Many thanks for posting the images - one of the group of four that you posted before?

It's especially interesting that they seem to be of the same type - quite broad with a short fuller. In the case of mine the fuller seems to have been cut - and not very well.

What about the comet theory? What else might it represent?

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2009, 08:42 PM

Hi Stephen,
I am always impressed at the astounding ability you have if finding remarkable examples of kaskara! This one is, of course, quite intriguing, especially because of yet another strange marking. It is always amplified by the appearance of a corroborating mark of the same kind found on the same type weapon, naturally suggesting the same workshop.

We have encountered other examples with corroborative marks here, I think both Rick and Charles I think have examples with a horned disc type mark at the forte on kaskaras they hold. If I recall, the marks are stamped but only appear obverse, not on both sides. These I have taken for possibly arsenal marks. I have one as well but am trying to find the photos.

The strange geometric device on this example appears, as noted, on both sides (I dont know if Colin's was on both sides), and occurs near the forte. I have seen kaskara with a bird type mark more to mid blade as well (again do not recall if both sides).
I feel that application of these markings at that location on the blade would be more likely to have either talismanic or invocative meanings. These are certainly native blades and clearly do not reflect the more common interpretation of the familiar European trade blades.

On Stephens example, there does seem to be traces of a dukari (crescent moon device) within the geometric, well worn away. While the suggestion of a comet is indeed significant in Muslim history as preceeding monumental events, I am not yet certain that this marking would lend to that perspective, though the stylized disc with tail is certainly compelling.

The dukari, or crescent moon, is of course familiar to us as the paired moons which seem to occur consistantly on the native blades of the Saharan takouba. We know they do occur on occasion of kaskara blades, and presume these are most likely from Hausa smiths (Briggs).

I think it will take some looking into Sudanese art and cultural symbolism to learn more on this marking, and quite possibly finding more on symbols reflecting a comet.

Absolutely fascinating marking!

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 22nd July 2009, 10:05 PM

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

No... beware! this.... this.... this.... IS THE MARK OF CTULHU!

And it is calling.... noooo, noooo. God help as alll, we are doomed....

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

No... beware! this.... this.... this.... IS THE MARK OF CTULHU!

And it is calling.... noooo, noooo. God help as alll, we are doomed....

Oh good grief!!!!!!

And here I was nervous about quoting Conan on the science fiction channel ...er thread....on futuristic blades.....then this!!
Is there some strange mist emanating from our keyboards????

trenchwarfare · 23rd July 2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Oh good grief!!!!!!

And here I was nervous about quoting Conan on the science fiction channel ...er thread....on futuristic blades.....then this!!
Is there some strange mist emanating from our keyboards????

Cough... Cough... Arghhhhhh______________________________

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 01:04 PM

Actually Lovecraft was always one of my favorites, and this really is a superb quote.......nicely done Valjhun

The more I look at these marks, they really do seem to be ultra stylized symbols that may be a comet. Now I wonder if other examples of material culture of the Mahdist period with like symbolism....and hopefully that arm dagger David mentioned.

All best regards,
Jim

20th July 2009, 04:16 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Stephen Here are some images... Regards Colin Attached Images

22nd July 2009, 08:42 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Stephen, I am always impressed at the astounding ability you have if finding remarkable examples of kaskara! This one is, of course, quite intriguing, especially because of yet another strange marking. It is always amplified by the appearance of a corroborating mark of the same kind found on the same type weapon, naturally suggesting the same workshop. We have encountered other examples with corroborative marks here, I think both Rick and Charles I think have examples with a horned disc type mark at the forte on kaskaras they hold. If I recall, the marks are stamped but only appear obverse, not on both sides. These I have taken for possibly arsenal marks. I have one as well but am trying to find the photos. The strange geometric device on this example appears, as noted, on both sides (I dont know if Colin's was on both sides), and occurs near the forte. I have seen kaskara with a bird type mark more to mid blade as well (again do not recall if both sides). I feel that application of these markings at that location on the blade would be more likely to have either talismanic or invocative meanings. These are certainly native blades and clearly do not reflect the more common interpretation of the familiar European trade blades. On Stephens example, there does seem to be traces of a dukari (crescent moon device) within the geometric, well worn away. While the suggestion of a comet is indeed significant in Muslim history as preceeding monumental events, I am not yet certain that this marking would lend to that perspective, though the stylized disc with tail is certainly compelling. The dukari, or crescent moon, is of course familiar to us as the paired moons which seem to occur consistantly on the native blades of the Saharan takouba. We know they do occur on occasion of kaskara blades, and presume these are most likely from Hausa smiths (Briggs). I think it will take some looking into Sudanese art and cultural symbolism to learn more on this marking, and quite possibly finding more on symbols reflecting a comet. Absolutely fascinating marking! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd July 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason: wording

22nd July 2009, 10:05 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." H.P. Lovecraft "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn." No... beware! this.... this.... this.... IS THE MARK OF CTULHU! And it is calling.... noooo, noooo. God help as alll, we are doomed.... Attached Images

20th July 2009, 07:22 PM	#2
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...they are the same. Many thanks for posting the images - one of the group of four that you posted before? It's especially interesting that they seem to be of the same type - quite broad with a short fuller. In the case of mine the fuller seems to have been cut - and not very well. What about the *comet* theory? What else might it represent?

23rd July 2009, 01:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually Lovecraft was always one of my favorites, and this really is a superb quote.......nicely done Valjhun The more I look at these marks, they really do seem to be ultra stylized symbols that may be a comet. Now I wonder if other examples of material culture of the Mahdist period with like symbolism....and hopefully that arm dagger David mentioned. All best regards, Jim