Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Hotspur]

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

[celtan]

Talk about coincidences.

I take it then that you're the fabled Glen C. from SFI that I was mentioning?

Welcome then (again), to our merry lil' troupe .

I should have known after you mentioned Dmitri, since he has not yet posted in our forum, AFAIK. Heck, I now remember the sword you mention, with the cigar ring. It iwas indeed beautiful

I own Dmitri some pictures from a cossack sword he asked about, which as it turned out, I didn'thave time to deliver. I always honor my promises. If I post them tp Photobucket, would you mind contacting him and delivering the link?

LBNL, did Ames place his seal on the imported swords?

Best

Manuel Luis Iravedra

PD: There's a data recovery program called EASEUS that has literally worked miracles for me. AFAIK, it is not commercially available. You need to contact it's developer in China, he sells it online. G'luck..!

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

[Hotspur]

Hi Manuel,

Dmitry should be on board here just about anytime, as it was he who promted me to register. I could have sworn I had registered in the past but it may have been the old board. Dmitry had been looking for a reference for me, which I willingly offered to Lee as well. Lee indicated he would contact Dmitry.

Yes, recovery. I hope it to be a breeze and have a piece of hardware coming in a few days. In gutting out the old tower, I'm pretty sure the failure was just a power supply but it had filled up with dust bunnies as well. As the power supply had been running very hot before the failure, I have my money on that. A good bit of the files I lost were simply picture archives and I have been going back to retreive what I can from online sources.

Topically, here are some more pictures of the one with a scabbard. This one from roughly the turn of the century. A German blade with a very American silver wash hilt. This one is actually quite dainty but in line for an early militia officer. We see sabres with this hilt more often. I have been working on restoring the silver on this one.

Cheers

Hotspur; this new laptop has much more ability than my old dinosaur

[fernando]

Hi Hotspur, welcome to the Forum .

Originally Posted by Hotspur

...Dmitry should be on board here just about anytime, as it was he who promted me to register...

Good news . I believe this is the same Dmitry who has posted some coments on a thread i have opened at SFI, concerning marks on the blade of a small sword.
I will be glad to welcome him to this Forum and also be able to continue such conversation (which was suddenly interrupted in that comunity), on the thread concerning the same subject i have previously opened in this Forum.
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I hope to recover my 2008/2009 files, as there were a great many spadroon files I had amassed, along with hundreds of eagle examples. In finally getting the Medicus Collection book in hand, I have still not spend enough time with it. It does though address side by side comparisons that the early Mowbray had hoped to be a volume II for the eagles, especially the later versions. I had included that one reverse P as an example of the post 1812 trend paralleling further eagle evolution. The star langets turn up from several makers offerings and the one shown was likely through the Spies firm in NY. there are many and varied offering from Ames that have the star hilts as well. Now, if one were to draw Masonic meanings into hilts at all, the five pointed star would make more affilative sense than the number of balls. Take a look at the USA great Seal development and there is more truly apparent Masonic association.

While the Ames Eagles with the squared off knuckle bow terminus was definitely a followup of the open mouth Birmingham eagles of the first decade (19th century) Ames is found in articles regarding trade that is openly bashing the 1830 "copies" of other Ames militia type swords, both straight and curved. Soemthing of a somewhat continuing investigation for me is when Ames actually strarted use of that particular eagle. It is most likely that Ames started copying the pre 1812 Birmingham bird, applied German blades or those maunfacture and etching processes that become (claimed) propriety to Ames. The post 1812 spadroons with these eagles are not as common as the plethora of sabres that surface but both have been attributed to early N.P. Ames contracts.

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Outstanding and well detailed information, and when I first posted this topic I had hoped to discover more on these interesting swords, I certainly had not expected to have the good fortune of such expertise entering in on the discussion. I am really glad to have Glen here with us, and sharing this insight and material. I look forward to Dmitri also participating , and seeing the core of knowledge ever increasing here!!

Very good points made on the presumption of Masonic symbolism, which as noted certainly could be construed into analysis of motif in many ways. I have often thought that in many cases determining what something is, sometimes involves clearly understanding what it is not. While Occam would probably shudder at such an idea, it is typically just an exercise I often apply in varying degree in establishing the validity in elements of data and ideas.

I am always grateful for soundly supported evidence, newly discovered data and especially well placed observations, clearly as presented here.
Again, welcome Glen, Im very glad you're here!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim,

I am way out of my depth stepping in on this one, so please forgive me if this information is too out dated. Regarding the 5-ball hilt, you might try finding the article by W.E. May "The 5-Ball Type of Sword" Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, No. 8, pp. 153-156 . In it he observes that the style came into use in the Navy shortly before 1790 and went out in 1805. He thinks it was in use in the army prior to this. He also gives a list of known variations of the motif but doesn't speculate on its significance. Seems to me I have another article on them, but, where? I will let you know if I find anything else.

I hope this helps
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Yay Jeff!!! That was the article I was trying to think of!!! Thank you for including that, and for coming in on this. It would appear this topic is even farther out of my depth than I thought, and its great to see revitalized research with all of the top guns (er, swords!) in on this.

Thanks so much,
All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

A better look of my two eagle spadroons. The five ball is one of the ubiquotous Ketland typethat could easily be as late as the 1820s or 1830s but as it is ivory and not bone, that would more likely predate 1812. The fellow on the right could be the first decade 19th century and more likely right at the cusp of the century. There ar eno martial engravings on that one at all, which is a bit unusual for the genre, The middle is a sabre of the Osborn type of weeping eagle and possibly as late as the 1812 war vintage. It more reminds the the three together as Moe, Larry and Curly. My three stooges. The dirk is undefined but post 1872 and shares the same scabbard as some of the Shriners middle east looking sabres. The sabre on the right is similar to some of the mid 20th century Italian air force hilts but has a naval flip-up basket. A Horster blade. The grip had been knid of scuffed sharkskin and rather than refinish white, it is black stove paint. It is also missing its decorative crown nut and I put it together with a standard cutlery nut. Both the dirk and the late sabre were at giveaway prices but I had gone to pick up the dirk specifically (unloved and unknown by the seller).



Anyway, spadroons on the left. TWo very different blades in that the Ketland seems to have been a better rolling mill endeavor. The difference to the Bolton blade is just that, more irregular about its margins and less mass produced. Although labeled in the books as Ketland, the mess of cutlers in Birmingham at the time makes any batch of them by any number of shops. Blades at one, engraving and gilt at another, castings from yet a third and then possibly actually assembled in the Ketland shop but most likely contracted right up to the point up to delivery of entire swords to Ketland, who then acted as a distributor. The same thing was going on with their firearms, from what I read of that business.

Cheers

Hotspur; Mark at Old Swords has an immense database for Birmingham

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

Thanks for the link, I am downloading now (dial-up). I admire researchers a good bit, yet tend to be quite contentious regarding speculations and hunches. I know I pursue my own a good bit of the time. Another had prompted me regarding some other Ames information and ended up looking at the perspective a good way back in the Ames family history. I will read it though, as something that will be on my bookshelf. Another article from MAA cued some more though about Ames in particular and as there are two seven ball examples I blame on Ames castings (or his supplier) Hamilton's notes are something I should be reviewing (along with adding his Ames book at some point). The thing is though that he seems a bit oblivious about the family history (in print anyway). Some of the Ames letters online are fascinating. Agreeably, a proponderance of American officers were MAsons, or affiliated with a good many participating with anumber of fraternities. I look forward to reading the article.

Wait, wait wait, it is about a twenty minute download for me but I will check it out.

Cheers

Hotspur; still twenty minutes, yarrrrrr

[Hotspur]

Ok Jeff, file duly noted.

First and correct me if I am wrong, there is a single cushion pommel seven beaded sword that happens to have Masonic iconography. We'll come back to that and perhaps merge or move it to a thread I initiated today regarding military swords used in fraternal society.

Secondly and while freely admiting to not being involved in Free Masonry, the article is thirty years old. While not dismissing such work, I have at times spent a good bit of browsing in the past decade reading about it. Here is a good site. Especially so for iconography. that is a nice chart in the Hamilton article though, a nice job with that.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masoni...ns_america.htm

Let me see if I can find some more I plumbed the depths and angles of such history.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

I can just about paraphrase the Hamilton article historical notes from the bookshelf I have there, simply in regarding notes about the Templars, Free Masons and development of fraternties both in England and somewhat worldwide (including American growth). South Carolina history is another interesting portal for such research.

Another older and goody from my bookmarks regarding guilds, craft and economic growth.
http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm

Getting back to beaded swords, I think not as associative as that single article example.

I do find the Hamilton artice quite useful to me in some aspects but not so much regarding what amounts to fraternal presentation swords. While interesting to in a different association of/to fraternities, what I find specifically of interest are some fairly plain swords that incorporate private purchase requests. Presentation swords are yet another category and as we all may agree that many military officers have been or are Free Masons, in the end, it's just a sword. I do not see that the number of beads are specifically engineered for Free Masons or even officer grades.

My feeling is that a continued discussion regarding fraternal swords, while quite parallel in this thread's interest, is a sidebar that might be better suited in a seperate thread than spadrone examples. Either that or I'm quite agreeable to attaching a mess o pictures of Shriners sabres, a dandy 1796 lc lodge sword and an exceptional British yeoman cavalry sabre with some really neat Scottish rite stuff engraved and gilded. Of those three I listed, it is just the Shriners sabres I would specifically assign to only fraternity. Some examples have been out there listed at dealers for some years (as of a few days ago, including a dandy skull and bones hilt for really short money.

Cheers

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

[Jeff D]

Hi Glen,

You are absolutely correct this article is hardly convincing that there is a definite link between the beads and the Masons. However it is definite that the hilt type was used on at least one occasion. I know absolutely nothing of the Mason organization, other then it liked secret symbols (even this I don't know for sure). Rather than show multiple examples of Known Mason swords with associated known symbols on them, do you have any examples of these known symbols on working military pieces? was it ever allowed? I don't mean added later to retired blades as Hamilton has cited.

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Hi Jeff, I'll add some images in the other thread I began. I panicked in thinking I had lost that one on a drive. I hesitate to just link some dealer offerings still listed but that one yeoman cavalry sword sold some time ago.

Cheers

Hotppur; oddly. it was the Odd Fellows that first drew my curiousities

[Rick]

Please don't link to any items currently for sale .

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

Hi Glen,
Sorry I missed this question on the first go round. I am not sure what the diamond is ment for. I read somewhere that Francis Thurkle used it. I have no idea what it represents. I will see if I can find the reference.

Hi Jim,
I am glad I am not the only one

All the best.
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Hi Jeff,

That example was the very first time I had seen these in counterguards. I made the mistake of not striking the iron when it was hot and that one dissapeared back in 2006. I am currently stalking another spadroon that bears the diamond and would be curious (but should be poking around Mowbray's tome again) who supplied blades for Thurkle. Other Englishmen that responded to my query back then mentioned it was just another styling. I believe Jim had some thoughts on a sweetheart counterguard design on a late Wundes bladed hussar. i get sidetracked from specifically eagle head pommel interests. I had a chat and examination about that hussar and Jeff Forgeng of the Higgins was thinkging possibly Scandinavian but definitely earlier than what time some had placed it in. Most likely (by his and other estimations) third quarter and perhaps even earlier.

There are some other swords that are MAsonic related that I never bothered to archive but coming to mind was a Swedish smallsword of the late 18th century quite bedecked with symbology. I would have to go searching for that if it had indeed been on one forum or another.

Thurkle was my first thought as well, as I had just been starting serious rework of everything eagle pommel. Mowbray's frontpiece example from Thurkle has that diamond. Ther are not terribly rare but are few and far in between. All seem to be from about that period of the last quarter 18th century.

Then there is this little nubbin on yet another spadroon ahd I could only imagine it was to position a knot. Were beading implemental to holding a knot in place? Enquiring minds and all that. Jean Binck sorted me out on another knot/scabbard tie, so this lil nubbin has had me wondering for a year or so (another I couldn't chase to my pen that time)

Cheers

Hotspur; I have the hussar pictures quite handy for that one

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys, this thread just keeps getting better! and Jeff, the note on Thurkle and the note on his use of the diamond has been driving me mad ! You know there will be no sleep until I find it!

Interesting note Glen on the sweetheart design, and while the topic seems familiar, it must have been some time ago as it doesnt come readily to mind. I do know that over the years I did do a lot of research on the use of the heart shape in hilt and mounts motif. Naturally little conclusive resulted, although it did lead to some interesting communications with some most interesting discussions.
It does seem that the heart shape does occur a great deal in Scottish baskethilts in the piercings in the saltires.......perhaps this design in the hilt of a Scottish officers sabre ?

It was actually Charles Whitelaw whose suggestion concerning certain Jacobite symbolism was behind some motif in sword hilts that led me to pursuing the idea that there may be more to such things than simple aesthetics.

I am really curious now on the 'Wundes' hussar sabre, and the note that it may be Scandinavian. Whatever the case the hilt certainly does seem to correspond to those of third quarter 18th.

I would really like to know more on the Swedish smallsword with much symbolism bedecked. What was the nature of this, hilt elements or blade decoration or both? I hate to ask as I know you are in the throes of computer chaos, but my curiosity has the best of me as always.

I do know that I have seen articles on superstitious symbolism and beliefs pertaining to weapons during I believe 17th-18th c. which was published in "Varia" the Swedish journal of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society.
Whether pertinant or not it seemed worthy of note.

The note on fixtures emplaced for holding a knot, i.e. sword knot, is interesting, and though I am not sure these beaded applications would serve in any special manner for same would be the case, it is an interesting suggestion. I do know that a M1796 light cavalry sabre I had that was most certainly a yeomanry example with ivory grips and gilt brass hilt, had a rectangular fixture at the center of the crossguard. This was specifically to hold a sword knot, and while I thought its placement that close to the blade was unusual, I later found references that claimed this recalled a 'Polish' style sabre which had this feature.
I sure miss seeing Jean's posts, and sincerely hope we will hear from again soon.

Regarding the spadroon shown in the two sword post, I had completely overlooked the strange hippocanthus, and being most unfamiliar with French swords in general, had not recognized it. When I thought of Pegasus, I did wonder what in the world that tail was though !
As clearly these French swords were often done 'in the style of' , the swords l'anglaise would certainly have, in instances, duplicated the 'cigar band' around the grip, of the British styles, so my comment stating the feature was strictly British was missspoken, and thought of in general application.

Now, back to the search for the 'Thurkle diamond' ...and I 'Hope' I can find it!

All best regards,
Jim