New Made keris, dhapur Mundarang

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Someday I will ask Mr Haryono Guritno himself on this question too. Because, in his recent "Keris Jawa" book he described pasopati (in some pictures) with such ricikan. Including this 'wellknown' pasopati with "largangsir" pamor -- which he described as made in the period of PB IX (picture below, from "Keris Jawa" page 30)...

GANJAWULUNG

I just open Mr.Haryono book and find that the Pasopati keris was estimated as tangguh PB IX. then I remember what Alan said about:

I have in my possession a copy of the Pakem that was prepared by Ngabei Sawikromo for Pakubuwana IX, completed in 1792 (Jawa). PB IX reigned from 1831 to 1893.

This earlier Surakarta Pakem defines a dhapur pasopati as having a ron dha nunut.

I'm now understand that the book 'dhapur' is simply determine the pakem in PB X era and for the keris before PB X era, it has different ricikan.

Then back to my keris, it also might be made with the guidance of pakem before PB X era. by adding ron dha nunut. I'm still wondering about its age, but I guess that I've been miss understood again. poor me. ' price never lies' I bought it cheap and hope the best tangguh for it. ( old PB keris) what a fool.

I never expect my thread would result this long debate about pakem dan ricikan. but I do enjoy this thread. I gain so much knowledge and information from both of you. please forgive me for my short comments. I find it difficult to express my thought in English. Y

Pak Ganjawulung, I'm wondering why you did not give any comment on my keris age. do you afraid of hurting my feeling when you gonna say "you've been tricked again by the keris dealer" . You know well that I really dont care about it. I do have a new strategy dealing with keris dealers. So don't you worry about it. I'm now collecting keris directly from its source. I simply collect keris from people whom keris are not threated well. people who do not apreciated keris as it should be. people who do not want to keep keris in their house. Off course with the help of my dearest mother.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

Pak Ganjawulung, I'm wondering why you did not give any comment on my keris age. do you afraid of hurting my feeling when you gonna say "you've been tricked again by the keris dealer" . You know well that I really dont care about it. I do have a new strategy dealing with keris dealers. So don't you worry about it. I'm now collecting keris directly from its source. I simply collect keris from people whom keris are not threated well. people who do not apreciated keris as it should be. people who do not want to keep keris in their house. Off course with the help of my dearest mother.

Dear Ferry,
I did give you my comment already. And it has already 'trespassing the old pakem' of perkerisan by -- (1) never say not-good thing to someone's keris, although not yet (2) 'ninthing' (tinging, knocking the blade in order to hear the tinging sound of the blade)...

Anyway, someday I hope we'll meet somewhere. Don't forget to bring your kerises...

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

I just open Mr.Haryono book and find that the Pasopati keris was estimated as tangguh PB IX. then I remember what Alan said about:

I have in my possession a copy of the Pakem that was prepared by Ngabei Sawikromo for Pakubuwana IX, completed in 1792 (Jawa). PB IX reigned from 1831 to 1893.

This earlier Surakarta Pakem defines a dhapur pasopati as having a ron dha nunut.

I'm now understand that the book 'dhapur' is simply determine the pakem in PB X era and for the keris before PB X era, it has different ricikan.

Mmmm, no comment on this. I don't even bother what dhapur it is. What I know is, that this "lar gangsir" keris is really a masterpiece I've seen, and that the keris was not made by a mediocre villageois Empu, nor recent Surakartan Empu. I've handled it in my hand once...

Like appreciating paintings. Appreciation cannot merely come through bundles of old books. Sometimes, you must look carefully and thoroughly the masterpieces. Some other (royal) masterpieces in the past are astonishing too. (Lucky, Gusti Poeger had permitted to look at a tiny them, in Sasana Poesaka, a year before karaton was on fire couple years ago). Some of the masterpieces are "di luar pakem". .

One of the astonishing masterpiece I've seen was, a beautiful 'keleng' (pamorless) keris with PB style, with relief of 'goddess in kemben' (kneeling goddes in traditional dress) with only minimal touch of gold kinatah... I don't even know what dhapur it should be. Nyi Lara Kidoel? Just beautiful. This keris now is in a bank locker in Jakarta....

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, you are the one who is commenting on the Lar Gangsir, not I.

Yes, it is indeed a very fine keris, and if it is a PB IX era piece, then it would have been regarded as a pasopati when it was made.

I agree with the broad analogy you have drawn with art appreciation, however, art appreciation is a skill which must be learnt.Pictures produced by competent craftsmen, even if those pictures are beautiful, or at least appealing, are not necessarily art.Conversely, some great art can be distinctly unappealing, and much less than beautiful. I believe that you have a background in the field of art? If so, then you know exactly what I am saying here, and you can easily draw the relationship with the art of the keris.

However, this digression into the field of art has absolutely no bearing at all upon our discussion to date about dhapur and the role played in the field of dhapur by the various pakem.

A keris can most certainly be a work of art, even a great work of art, and be completely unclassifiable as any dhapur in accordance with any pakem.

Equally a keris can conform completely to a karaton pakem, and be an appallingly ugly piece of rubbish.

Dhapur according to pakem has nothing at all to do with art, it is all about maintenance of an established pattern, that established pattern being related to a socio-religious value.

Dhapur is about esoteric value, not artistic value.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Ferry,
I did give you my comment already. And it has already 'trespassing the old pakem' of perkerisan by -- (1) never say not-good thing to someone's keris, although not yet (2) 'ninthing' (tinging, knocking the blade in order to hear the tinging sound of the blade)...

Anyway, someday I hope we'll meet somewhere. Don't forget to bring your kerises...


Mmmm, no comment on this. I don't even bother what dhapur it is. What I know is, that this "lar gangsir" keris is really a masterpiece I've seen, and that the keris was not made by a mediocre villageois Empu, nor recent Surakartan Empu. I've handled it in my hand once...

Like appreciating paintings. Appreciation cannot merely come through bundles of old books. Sometimes, you must look carefully and thoroughly the masterpieces. Some other (royal) masterpieces in the past are astonishing too. (Lucky, Gusti Poeger had permitted to look at a tiny them, in Sasana Poesaka, a year before karaton was on fire couple years ago). Some of the masterpieces are "di luar pakem". .

One of the astonishing masterpiece I've seen was, a beautiful 'keleng' (pamorless) keris with PB style, with relief of 'goddess in kemben' (kneeling goddes in traditional dress) with only minimal touch of gold kinatah... I don't even know what dhapur it should be. Nyi Lara Kidoel? Just beautiful. This keris now is in a bank locker in Jakarta....

GANJAWULUNG

Pak Ganjawulung,
I'd like to meet you in person some day. but most of my kerises are in Solo now. seem like my dearest mother just love them alot. I'm now trying to motivate my family to love keris. I've read your article about empu Subandi from karanganyar. in the article you wrote aboout young people showing high interest in keris making, and one of them is my young brother. my brother's name is Argo. I encouraged him to study keris about a year ago. but the aprentice is temporarily stoped, he is now just simply try to make a living first. I do hope some day he'll continue his keris making practice. He once ask me to meka a besalen for him. based on 6 month keris study, and I rejected his idea.

Pak Ganja, thank you for remind me how importand to respect others keris. some times I just too excited and forget this manner.'never say-not good' and the ' nanthing' manner.
I are a very lucky person pak Ganja. You've seen wonderful kerises. I'd loke to hae a similar experience some day. I'm looking forward to see you pak Ganja.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've just been reviewing this thread, and I have found that I have erred in my post # 31.

In that post I have referred to a keris of pasopati dhapur.

This is an error in terminology.

The keris I have referred to as "pasopati" was in fact Ferry's keris, which is not pasopati but mundharang. All my comments are as intended, but for Ferry's mundharang, not for any pasopati.

I apologise if my lack of concentration has caused any confusion. The problem was that the superb keris that our resident connoisseur, Pak Ganja posted blinded me and caused me to think only in terms of pasopati.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've just been reviewing this thread, and I have found that I have erred in my post # 31.

In that post I have referred to a keris of pasopati dhapur.

This is an error in terminology.

The keris I have referred to as "pasopati" was in fact Ferry's keris, which is not pasopati but mundharang. All my comments are as intended, but for Ferry's mundharang, not for any pasopati.

I apologise if my lack of concentration has caused any confusion. The problem was that the superb keris that our resident connoisseur, Pak Ganja posted blinded me and caused me to think only in terms of pasopati.

Yes Alan, I do feel there was a miss point on your last post. as we all know, this is a thread for my mundarang keris.