Keris golok?

[gwirya]

Any idea about the dapur? Please share any information about this one
thx

[A. G. Maisey]

Unusual.

Never seen anything like this.

My guess --- and it is only a guess--- is Lombok.

There appears to be an overall Balinese feel + maybe a little Bugis input in this piece. Lombok has both, and they used to do some pretty peculiar things with keris in Lombok.

[Sajen]

Also never have seen a keris like this before but it seems that this keris is in all parts long together like this. Is it maybe a reshaped (because broken?) so called keris pedang? My guess is also Lombok for origin.
Very interesting keris, will be worth to get a warangan (then you can see maybe by the pamor if my guess is correct about broken keris pedang) and a mendak.

sajen

[Rick]

How long is the blade ?

If it is short then possibly a Keris Badek ?
Lombok has already produced examples of Keris Pedang .


Why not Keris Badek ?

[gwirya]

The length of the blade is 31 cm (12.2 in") and the owner offering the keris is from Lombok.

[semar]

the dapur of this type of keris is keris pedang

regards semar

[Sajen]

I know only the long version, this one is 57 cm, only the blade.

sajen

[Rick]

Sajen, that is the only form I am familiar with also ..

A blade that short seems to fall more in patrem territory than pedang .


Keris Pedang Patrem ... ?

[gwirya]

Semar, the blade on your first picture seems to be very close to the one in my picture. How long is the blade of yours semar?
thank you guys for all the information, really appreciate it.
thx

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

Sajen, that is the only form I am familiar with also ..

A blade that short seems to fall more in patrem territory than pedang .


Keris Pedang Patrem ... ?

I tend to agree. AFAIK "pedang" literally means "sword" and from my perspective 12" is just a wee bit too short to qualify as a sword.
Would love to see you clean the little guy up. Does it seem to have pamor?

[semar]

hello Gwirya

the lengte of my blad = 32 cm
and David when you don`t know this type of keris
that does not mean that the name is not correct
mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ???
because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium

regards semar

[David]

Originally Posted by semar

hello Gwirya

the lengte of my blad = 32 cm
and David when you don`t know this type of keris
that does not mean that the name is not correct
mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ???
because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium

regards semar

Sorry Semar, but i am not understanding your point about guppies. My point comes from a place of logic, which doesn't necessarily make it correct. But if the word "pedang" means "sword", why would you use it it name a dagger length weapon?
I am curious why you are insistent that it is another type of keris pedang. Do you have reference?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

It is difficult to debate the true name of the type unless we are talking the same language, so to speak. For instance, I would have no problem in calling it a Tjoendrik (using the protocol I follow). However, among the Soenda, even this term is not definite, being interchangeable with, for example, sekin/sikkien, badi, peso blati (depending on individual and/or region).
It is important not to lose sight of the protocol under which the item is named. People tend to get carried away by mainstream/'accepted' protocols to the detriment/exclusion of others.
For all we know, it could've been called 'pedang' because its general shape resembles a type of sword. Or, 'pedang' may not have meant 'sword' at all at the time of its taxonomy.

As for being too short to be called a sword, what is the minimum length for an Occidental shortsword? One can then translate this proportionately to the Archipelago and see what the result is.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

Amuk , I agree with you 100%.

To have a "correct" name, you need to be using the same language and to be coming from the same beginning.

I do not know this keris form. Never seen it before. I have yet to check references to see if I can find it somewhere.

Maybe the correct name is "keris pedang".

Then again, maybe its not.

Just because somebody from the present time gives a name to something does not mean that that name is correct. I can remember some 20 years ago I encountered a pamor I had not seen before with a dealer in Solo. The salesman from Madura was there at the time, and I asked what the name of this pamor was. He told me it was a new pamor and nobody had named it yet, then he asked what I thought might be a good name for it. I gave a name to it.

Guess what?

Twelve months later that pamor was with a number of other dealers, and it bore the name I had given it.

Salesmen and dealers have a way of sticking names on things to help their marketting efforts. Not dissimilar to car manufacturers really.

Anyway, let's assume for the moment that the correct name is "keris pedang".

Now what we need is a reference.

It could well be keris pedang in one place, and have a different name somewhere else. Thus, whenever we say that a particular name for something is "correct", we need to also say where,and when and according to who, it is correct.

Semar, would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to the source of this terminology?

Thank you.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo again everybody,

BTW.... Remember this?

[Sajen]

I think so that the correct name of the dapur from the long version is "Cundrik" (like Amuk already note), see Ensiklopedi Keris page 136-137, about dapur keris lurus. But I don't know if you can call the short version with the same name, but on the other hand dapur is dapur equal how long.
The name "pedang" is colloquial.
sajen

[A. G. Maisey]

The keris posted by gwirya is not dhapur cundrik according the Surakarta pakem, nor according to the entry in Ensiklopedi.

It is a Lombok form.

Djalengga does not show this form, but he does show the ligan, for which he gives the alternate name of "keris pedang".

He says:- " There is a straight keris shaped like a pedang, or a pedang shaped like a keris.It is called a keris because its base is like a keris, complete with ganja, and it is called a pedang because its blade is like a pedang." (free translation)

Not really colloquial, but what it is called in Lombok, and it is a Lombok form, not a Javanese form, so you cannot align it to a Javanese palace pakem.

As Amuk Murugul said:- "It is difficult to debate the true name of the type unless we are talking the same language,---"

At the moment, I am not prepared to accept that the name for this form is "keris pedang".

It might be, but if it is, I definitely want to know according to whom. I want a reference.

Actually, its not a cundrik either. Origin is Lombok, OK, it might be Bali, but it is coming from Lombok at the moment, and it most certainly is not Jawa. In Lombok a cundrik is a distinct weapon, and the keris dhapur cundrik is a Javanese dhapur, not applicable in Lombok.

Isn't it fun ?

When you start to play "The Name Game" you can get into all sorts of hot water.

[Sajen]

Have to accept the explanation from Mr. Maisey, I can't assigned dapur from Surakarta to Lombok.
I found another keris from Bali (?) with this dapur (long version / blade 48 cm) in the second book from Tammens (De Kris 2) on page 234/235, he write by dapur: cundrik-form.

sajen

[A. G. Maisey]

The keris shown on P. 234 of Tammens, Vol. 2 does not share the same characteristics as the keris posted by gwirya.

The Tammens example appears to be a ligan, or keris pedang; I say "appears to be", because all we can see is the outline of the blade.

One thing is certain:- it is most definitely not a keris of cundrik form.

[karset]

maybe you all can see at Ensiklopedi Keris "curiga".close?
Picture from Kang Amuk Murugul, is Badik Curuk Aul,,,there are two of that type with diferent "ricikan" at Geusan Ulun Museum,Sumedang.They also 2 from top 8 pusaka of Sumedang.

[Jussi M.]

Please let´s not start this blah-blah-blah again

Who cares what X Y or Z call it. A name is just a name and usually it is so that many things come with many names. Would Elvis´s music be any better or worse if he had been named Melvin Tiny? Of course not. What counts is what it is - not what it´s name is. I am frustrated in reading countless threads that concentrate on skin deep barstool understanding, namely name-dropping, pun intended.

Is´nt there more to this subject - keris - than what a pamor is named or a dapur called?

Please do not understand me wrong - I am not speaking of this thread particularly but in general about where the focus in most threads seem to lie at. I am very interested in knowing the WHY, WHERE and WHEN a dapur such as this was created. This in my opinion is interesting, the music itself, not that the singer was named Melvin.

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks,

J

[David]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Please let´s not start this blah-blah-blah again

Who cares what X Y or Z call it. A name is just a name and usually it is so that many things come with many names. Would Elvis´s music be any better or worse if he had been named Melvin Tiny? Of course not. What counts is what it is - not what it´s name is. I am frustrated in reading countless threads that concentrate on skin deep barstool understanding, namely name-dropping, pun intended.

Is´nt there more to this subject - keris - than what a pamor is named or a dapur called?

Please do not understand me wrong - I am not speaking of this thread particularly but in general about where the focus in most threads seem to lie at. I am very interested in knowing the WHY, WHERE and WHEN a dapur such as this was created. This in my opinion is interesting, the music itself, not that the singer was named Melvin.

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks,

J

Jussi, i am not in disagreement with you here.
So perhaps you could share with us your ideas of WHY, WHERE and WHEN this particular dhapur was developed. Let the music play.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by David

Jussi, i am not in disagreement with you here.
So perhaps you could share with us your ideas of WHY, WHERE and WHEN this particular dhapur was developed. Let the music play.

Sorry David, cannot participate in that.

I like music. I am not a musician. Simple truth is I have no idea whatsoever but I would like to educate myself. That is why I joined this forum. To learn. I am very new to the keris but not new to learning. In fact that is what I do for a living: teach. And, it is my professional opinion as a teacher that the more terms and names used to describe a thing new to the student the more elusive learning becomes. - Add too many trees and it becomes difficult to see the forest. What comes to terms and names less is always best.

Excessive, overlapping and ill-defined terms should be avoided as they add more confusion than aid in understanding what is being discussed about

The first and foremost foundational purpose of any given body of theory is to clearly define what is meant by each given term as then and only then it becomes possible to understand what is being meant when those terms are used in the exchange of information.

In my opinion all terms that are not clearly and broadly accepted and shared within the keris community (which should be defined first, see what I mean?) should not be used as it only adds to confusion, misunderstanding and makes learning the more difficult. The use of vague, overlapping and elusive terms is in my opinion a clear mark of a need to impress others and hide the fact that one really does not understand what one is talking about.

The highest form of skill and understanding in any field of expertise is to be able to simplify and make things easily understandable to those who are less trained, read and experienced. Usually the more skill and understanding a person has the more easier and common, less terms infested, language he or she will use.

Thanks,

J.

[David]

Believe me Jussi, i do understand your frustration. However, the study of the keris is not like the study of a subject like mathematics. There are far less absolutes and a whole lot of very fussy areas. I am as interested in the why, where and when of this dhapur development as you are. The truth, i am afraid, is that it is very possible that no one can provide us with the definitive answers to these questions. Much of the information about keris is speculative or has been lost to time. So we discuss what we can. The name game can be quite frustrating and confusing and may well be a useless exercise in the end. Still i don't think the right thing to do is to shut down such discussions if people are interested in the exercise. Certainly there are some things to be learned from the application of languages in the keris world.
Your request that "all terms that are not clearly and broadly accepted and shared within the keris community should not be used" is indeed a difficult one because i believe that there are in fact many "keris communities" and they may use some different terminology. Words for various parts of the keris can differ from island to island and sometimes even be different on various parts of the same island. It is indeed complex and confusing, but it is what it is. Often enough i will try to use an English word to describe a keris part, but there is a limit to that and just as often i am left only with a local term to use. What English word could i use to describe a gonjo for instance, or to draw attention to the sogokan or gandik of a blade? Of course these are Javanese words and might not necessarily apply to a blade from another origin, but they are used in the hope that we all understand what is meant. But many keris come from areas where Javanese was not the dominate language and so different names developed for various parts, dhapurs and pamors. I don't think it is fair to call these different names excessive. At the end of the day i don't think any of these names really help us with understanding the deeper questions of the keris, which in my mind are many. But i also think that it is necessary to have a fair grasp of the cultures and languages (and therefore names given) of the various peoples of the keris if one is to have any hope of uncovering any of the deeper understanding that i think we all seek here. So in the end i think such discussions as these are at least relevant even if they are nothing more than a scratch at the surface.

[Jussi M.]

David.

When I said about the WHY, What, WHEN, WHERE and HOW etc. I did mean it on a broad scope, not just regarding the keris on this thread or its dapur though I did mention that, yes. - I was implying it only as an example. I am sorry I was unable to make my point clear. My mistake. I understand completely what you mean - ruling out the language out would make it impossible to continue many of the fruitful discussions. Besides it is in the etymology that we many times find some proofs pro or against some insight to some of the Big Questions outlined above.

Some terminology is - of course - most welcome as it makes it easier to grasp certain things, such as the various parts, styles and components of the handle, sheath, blade and their decoration you mentioned. - These are well established and clearly define what is meant as there are - as you said - no other terms to be used.

It appears I am with you all the way. - So, what did I mean then? I meant that it is - in my opinion - very frustrating when a posting includes more vague terminology than it does clear language when that vague terminology could have been replaced with more well established substitutes and especially so if it appears that the vague terminology is used only to enhance the posters own standing in this virtual community.

I am not implying new rules have to be formulated nor am I stating any new course of action. Everybody does what they do and if I am the only one who raises this issue onto discussion maybe it is me that should change his ways of dealing with vague terminology and excessive name dropping. This is not my house. It is the house of the long standing members with accumulated information who have shared this information with others. I have not shared any information with anybody because I dont have any. Most of my 80 odd postings are more or less replies on the oohs and aahs on the common show and tell postings and a few funny pictures which I´ve included to bring some humor to this place.

I have - with high hopes - began a few serious threads that have more or less not moved anywhere as members have not wanted to participate on them. So I am merely an infrequent visitor who likes to every now and then sit in the porch looking inside to the big boys playing inside and hoping that they would share something of importance. It happens rarely and maybe it is because I am just a visitor sitting on the porch and not another established big boy. Then again I have a feeling that the big boys are holding back because they feel that the spectators are in it just for the show and tell? Maybe so maybe not.

Anyways... as said it is not my house and I am just happy to be accepted to sit on the porch every now and then. Thats all. It is also pretty darn difficult to draw the line on what is and what is or is not a well established term worthy of usage. Lets move on. All I kindly ask for is straightforward and easy language when possible. - After all this is an international forum and the language used here should reflect it.

The subject is hard enough to get a grasp of without complicating it unnecessarily with fancy wordings

Finally I apologize for the beginner of this thread. - I meant not to hi-jack it. Also please acknowledge that I do not imply that the beginner of this thread is faulty of using terminology on any unwelcome manner as discussed between me and David. If this theme is to be further discussed I hope it would be done so on a new thread began by the moderators if they see it fit and worthy of a wider discussion. For my part I´ve said about this theme everything I have to say.

Thanks,

J.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

Methinks ....... oft times ....... that the real objective is not so much to arrive at the 'absolute truth', but rather, to reach a 'truth' which provides continuity and which one is comfortable with.

And ....... after all ....... different strokes for different blokes.

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

When I said about the WHY, What, WHEN, WHERE and HOW etc. I did mean it on a broad scope, not just regarding the keris on this thread or its dapur though I did mention that, yes. - I was implying it only as an example. I am sorry I was unable to make my point clear. My mistake. I understand completely what you mean - ruling out the language out would make it impossible to continue many of the fruitful discussions. Besides it is in the etymology that we many times find some proofs pro or against some insight to some of the Big Questions outlined above.

Jussi there was never any question in my mind that you were talking about the larger picture and not just the keris on this thread. I too would like to see this forum delve into the deeper questions of the keris and while i never really tire of the "show & tell" (afterall, i like to see nice and interesting keris) i know there is much more to learn than the names of all the parts, dhapurs and pamor patterns.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Some terminology is - of course - most welcome as it makes it easier to grasp certain things, such as the various parts, styles and components of the handle, sheath, blade and their decoration you mentioned. - These are well established and clearly define what is meant as there are - as you said - no other terms to be used.

Perhaps you could explain exactly which terms in this thread you are opposed to.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

It appears I am with you all the way. - So, what did I mean then? I meant that it is - in my opinion - very frustrating when a posting includes more vague terminology than it does clear language when that vague terminology could have been replaced with more well established substitutes and especially so if it appears that the vague terminology is used only to enhance the posters own standing in this virtual community.

I'm sorry Jussi, but it is difficult for me to respond to this when you yourself are being vague about which words in this thread you are referring to exactly and what words you think they could be replaced with to make it more clear. Yes, there is quite a bit of jargon involved in the keris world and i would not argue with you that some of it may be unnecessary, though personally i am not well informed enough to judge which of them those are.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

I am not implying new rules have to be formulated nor am I stating any new course of action. Everybody does what they do and if I am the only one who raises this issue onto discussion maybe it is me that should change his ways of dealing with vague terminology and excessive name dropping. This is not my house. It is the house of the long standing members with accumulated information who have shared this information with others. I have not shared any information with anybody because I dont have any. Most of my 80 odd postings are more or less replies on the oohs and aahs on the common show and tell postings and a few funny pictures which I´ve included to bring some humor to this place.

Well Jussi, as i see it this is as much your house as anyone else's. We don't rate our members by their level of knowledge here and everyone has a right to their opinion, even the less informed ones. And i have always appreciated your funny pictures.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

I have - with high hopes - began a few serious threads that have more or less not moved anywhere as members have not wanted to participate on them. So I am merely an infrequent visitor who likes to every now and then sit in the porch looking inside to the big boys playing inside and hoping that they would share something of importance. It happens rarely and maybe it is because I am just a visitor sitting on the porch and not another established big boy. Then again I have a feeling that the big boys are holding back because they feel that the spectators are in it just for the show and tell? Maybe so maybe not.

You will only be an outsider here if you make yourself one. As far as i am concerned we are all students here. Everyone has something to offer IMO and sometimes brilliant theory can come from the keyboards of those with little knowledge, but a quick and logical mind. There are certainly many people here with much greater knowledge of the keris world than i and i respect them for that knowledge. But i think this "established big boys" idea is nonsense and if people seem to be holding back it is more likely that the really don't know any definitive answers.

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

All I kindly ask for is straightforward and easy language when possible. - After all this is an international forum and the language used here should reflect it.
The subject is hard enough to get a grasp of without complicating it unnecessarily with fancy wordings

True enough, this is an international forum, but discussing a weapon which is strictly Malay/Indonesian. So it stands to reason the the terminology of this weapon will be derived from the languages of it's origin. Again i am not sure exactly which words you refer to as the "fancy" ones and what words should be used in their place. I am not unaware that new terms are still forming in regards to keris and that new dhapur and pamor names are likely to appear that have not been heard of by others here before. This does complicate matters, but it is not for me to judge whether or not these newly arising terms are valid or not. Perhaps they are valid for one keris community and not for another. I think we just need to evaluate them as they turn up.

[karset]

do i make u wrote all that Jussi?, if the answer yes. all my apologize for you.

Maybe someone, somewhere need to know what i know about this keris type to use it as data and find more about What, Where,When,Why and How.
Just one from so many colors at this multicolor of keris.

[Jussi M.]

karset: I did not mention you.

David: I already said that I am through with this theme. You now ask me to name the names that should not be named? - You know what , I cannot do that. Why, because I simply can´t tell the difference. It is a fair question though. So why bring this theme up in the first place? Simply said because it seems that a majority of threads will end up in a name game in one form or another. I should of have begun a new on this theme and not talked about it here. That was a mistake and I think bringing this matter up was not the wisest idea of the week either.

All I kindly ask for is that when possible lets use well known and widely accepted terms if they exist and suit the case. If not, well, use what ever is appropriate as long as using a term serves a purpose. Not doing so adds unnecessary complication and leads to never-ending loops of misunderstanding, misinformation and putting time on debates and name-games that lead to nowhere.

The name-game



Over and out of this thread.

J

[drdavid]

Hi Jussi
This is just my personal take on the issue so bear with me

Keris is art not science. There is one (maybe two) universal language of science. There is no universal language of art and there is no universal language of keris. It seems to me that if one's keris background is Jawa it is a bit like ones art background is France, if one's keris background is Malay peninsular it is a bit like one's art background is Japan............there has been cross fertilisation between the two worlds, there are similar motifs, the techniques interplay, and both are very knowledgeable........ but the words are often not interchangeable. What is interchangeable is some perception of quality, and an appreciation of the beauty and cultural significance . Keris study can be very frustrating (particularly the name game) but when I reach that point I ask myself how would 20 people from around the world interpret Van Gogh's (or Van Gough's) Starry Night.....most would appreciate the image and skill, but the words they use to describe it, they would be different.

It would also be impossible for me to know exactly why Van Gogh painted this scene in this manner at that time, unless he had written his reasons at the time, so I become reliant on other people's interpretation of the work OR I make my own story based about what I know of his life, painting style, emotional response to the image etc. Of course none of my story or someone else's interpretation is the truth .
cheers
DrD