Philippine Dagger Just Ended On Ebay

Robert · 1st February 2009, 10:09 PM

Nice Philippine dagger with a very unusual guard. Thank you Steve for pointing this out to me. Looks like a lot of the turtle shell is missing off the scabbard. Will know more of were in the Philippines when it arrives and I can see the end of the grip. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ies%26_fvi%3D1
Comments are welcomed on this especially on the guard and its possible use in fighting.

Will post new pictures when it arrives.

Robert

Here are the pictures from the auction.

Atlantia · 1st February 2009, 10:52 PM

Looks really nice mate!
Certainly going to be amongst friends in your collection

Definately post some pics when it arrives!

Gene

Robert · 2nd February 2009, 04:34 AM

Thank You for your interest Gene. Yes, it will have new friends when it arrives,

including a straight bladed brother with the same style of scabbard. Will post pictures as soon as it arrives and as has been cleaned of the rust on the blade. Any thoughts on the strange shape of the guard? Something else that is odd about this, the hilt looks to be off-set and not centered to the blade. I've seen this quite a bit on Philippine swords and knives that are of Spanish influence in their design but this is the first dagger I've seen like this.

Comments anyone ?

Robert

Atlantia · 2nd February 2009, 03:19 PM

Hi Robert.
Well these are completely out of my experience, so I'm just an interested admirer, but the guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened.
Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?
A little spike and flat screwdriver could be useful?

Just a wild guess

Regards
Gene

Dimasalang · 2nd February 2009, 07:07 PM

Very nice! Nice price too.

I hope and pray I can find a Philippine dagger like this someday. Why cant I ever get this lucky... sigh...

Robert · 2nd February 2009, 08:08 PM

Gene, Going by the pictures I would only estimate the age of this dagger to be first quarter 20th century at best and more likely the second quarter. I will know more when it arrives. What still looks odd in the pictures is that if the hilt is off-set it looks like it was designed to be held with the pointed side of the guard pointing down or out (fingers side) and the shorter side (thumb side) pointing up or in. Most daggers with straight guards that I've seen seem to be designed to be griped ether way.

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for your kind words. If this had not been pointed out to me by another member of this forum I might have overlooked it myself.

There are still probably quite a few of these out there so you should be able to find one. Good luck in the hunt and when you do find one please post pictures.

Thank you both again for you interest.

Robert

Atlantia · 2nd February 2009, 08:29 PM

yes bud, I completely agree about the handle.
What are your thoughts on the spike?

Robert · 2nd February 2009, 08:59 PM

No really sure at all. Maybe to rake or gouge with? I was hoping that some of the other members trained in the fighting arts might be able to help out on this.

Robert

t_c · 2nd February 2009, 10:03 PM

Great dagger Robert! In my FMA experience, I have never been shown any specific techniques using a pointed guard (maybe someone else has been though), otherwise I think you are right on: gouge/rake/poke ideas. Sharp and pointy can always be useful, if even just for the incidentals. It definitely adds interest to the piece, and I'm thinking that it probably has more to do with the artistic application of available materials than actually improving on the weapon - can you really improve on a blade like that!?

Either way, a really nice dagger!

Battara · 3rd February 2009, 03:20 AM

This is an Ilocano dagger. May have been used in a form similar to espada y daga.

Robert · 3rd February 2009, 10:58 PM

Thank you for the identification Jose. I was waiting for it to arrive before posting my thoughts on its origin and who possible made it. Because of not being as knowledgeable as you and others on the forum, I wanted to see the end of the hilt before making my determination.

What are your thoughts on the age of this piece? I was thinking either first or second quarter of the 20th century and hoping for the first.

Thank you again for your help and interest.

Robert

Battara · 4th February 2009, 02:47 AM

As far as age is concerned, I would rather wait for better pictures.

Robert · 5th February 2009, 12:24 AM

Well here are a few more picture. I'm not sure how much better they are though as I was having problems getting any to come out right. The pommel on this is closed ended (the tang does not go through) which seems unusual if this is from Luzon. The guard is steel or iron and the rest of the fittings including the drag on the scabbard are brass. Now that I have the dagger in hand the strange shape of the guard is still a mystery to me. Looks to me that only one section of the turtle shell on the scabbard is actually missing. When I originally looked at it in the auction pictures I thought the entire scabbard might have been covered with it at one time. The grip is well worn wood and you can see in one of the pictures it is actually octagonal in shape and not round as it looks in the original pictures.
Jose, what are your thoughts on the age of this dagger? I'm leaning towards early 20th century myself. My thanks to everyone for your all your interest and help.
Robert

t_c · 5th February 2009, 02:53 AM

Robert is it possible that the guard is made from the base of an old file?
If the dagger was part of an espada y daga (sword and dagger) set, then it was intended to be used as a left-hand weapon and the longer guard may have been designed to serve as a "shelf" of sorts to help pass or parry the opponent's weapon, similar in idea to a main-gauche (hope that takes some of the mystery out of it).

Ferguson · 5th February 2009, 02:58 AM

This may be stupid, but could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?

I think I've seen a guard like that before, but can't remember.

Steve

Battara · 5th February 2009, 03:28 AM

Robert, I would agree with you about the age. Although unusual for a Luzon piece, I have seen end caps on Ilocano daggers before. In fact, my Ilocano piece has a brass end cap.

The cross guard is strange - no idea.

Robert · 5th February 2009, 04:03 AM

T_C, It very well could be made from a file. When new and sharp files are used in the shaping and finishing of blades and then when old and dull they are often made into blades and other parts. Waste not want not.

Steve, I think you and Gene both might be on to something. He earlier said "The guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened. Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?" And now your idea "Could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?" Very interesting ideas.

Robert

Atlantia · 5th February 2009, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

This may be stupid, but could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?

I think I've seen a guard like that before, but can't remember.

Steve

Hi Steve,
Thats what I was infering in my earlier post. In the ebay pictures it looks like a pick and flat screwdriver, but these closeups show the short side is more just a larger spike.
What made me think the long spike was a tool rather than a offensive is that it seems to be a uniform width for a fair proportion of its length, as though its meant to push into something. (like to clear a touch hole)
Unless we are being too weapon orientated, and it has a civilian use like piercing through the thick skin of some fruit, coconut or similar?

I think it looks great in the new pictures! Better than the ebay ones made it look. Bargain methinks.

Gene

Atlantia · 5th February 2009, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

T_C, It very well could be made from a file. When new and sharp files are used in the shaping and finishing of blades and then when old and dull they are often made into blades and other parts. Waste not want not.

Steve, I think you and Gene both might be on to something. He earlier said "The guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened. Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?" And now your idea "Could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?" Very interesting ideas.

Robert

Hi Robert
Just seen the new pictures!

It looks fabulous

congratulations on a nice addition to your collection.
Gene

Robert · 5th February 2009, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Robert
Just seen the new pictures!

It looks fabulous

congratulations on a nice addition to your collection.
Gene

Thank you Gene. For me to say that I am extremely pleased with it would be an understatement !!

Here is a picture of it resting with a few of its new friends.

Robert

1st February 2009, 10:09 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Philippine Dagger Just Ended On Ebay Nice Philippine dagger with a very unusual guard. Thank you Steve for pointing this out to me. Looks like a lot of the turtle shell is missing off the scabbard. Will know more of were in the Philippines when it arrives and I can see the end of the grip. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ies%26_fvi%3D1 Comments are welcomed on this especially on the guard and its possible use in fighting. Will post new pictures when it arrives. Robert Here are the pictures from the auction. Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 2nd February 2009 at 04:27 AM.

2nd February 2009, 04:34 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thank You for your interest Gene. Yes, it will have new friends when it arrives, including a straight bladed brother with the same style of scabbard. Will post pictures as soon as it arrives and as has been cleaned of the rust on the blade. Any thoughts on the strange shape of the guard? Something else that is odd about this, the hilt looks to be off-set and not centered to the blade. I've seen this quite a bit on Philippine swords and knives that are of Spanish influence in their design but this is the first dagger I've seen like this. Comments anyone ? Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 2nd February 2009 at 06:54 AM.

5th February 2009, 12:24 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Well here are a few more picture. I'm not sure how much better they are though as I was having problems getting any to come out right. The pommel on this is closed ended (the tang does not go through) which seems unusual if this is from Luzon. The guard is steel or iron and the rest of the fittings including the drag on the scabbard are brass. Now that I have the dagger in hand the strange shape of the guard is still a mystery to me. Looks to me that only one section of the turtle shell on the scabbard is actually missing. When I originally looked at it in the auction pictures I thought the entire scabbard might have been covered with it at one time. The grip is well worn wood and you can see in one of the pictures it is actually octagonal in shape and not round as it looks in the original pictures. Jose, what are your thoughts on the age of this dagger? I'm leaning towards early 20th century myself. My thanks to everyone for your all your interest and help. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 5th February 2009 at 03:47 AM.

1st February 2009, 10:52 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Looks really nice mate! Certainly going to be amongst friends in your collection Definately post some pics when it arrives! Gene

2nd February 2009, 03:19 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Robert. Well these are completely out of my experience, so I'm just an interested admirer, but the guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened. Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders? A little spike and flat screwdriver could be useful? Just a wild guess Regards Gene

2nd February 2009, 07:07 PM	#5
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Very nice! Nice price too. I hope and pray I can find a Philippine dagger like this someday. Why cant I ever get this lucky... sigh...

2nd February 2009, 08:08 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, Going by the pictures I would only estimate the age of this dagger to be first quarter 20th century at best and more likely the second quarter. I will know more when it arrives. What still looks odd in the pictures is that if the hilt is off-set it looks like it was designed to be held with the pointed side of the guard pointing down or out (fingers side) and the shorter side (thumb side) pointing up or in. Most daggers with straight guards that I've seen seem to be designed to be griped ether way. Dimasalang, Thank you very much for your kind words. If this had not been pointed out to me by another member of this forum I might have overlooked it myself. There are still probably quite a few of these out there so you should be able to find one. Good luck in the hunt and when you do find one please post pictures. Thank you both again for you interest. Robert

2nd February 2009, 08:29 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	yes bud, I completely agree about the handle. What are your thoughts on the spike?

2nd February 2009, 08:59 PM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	No really sure at all. Maybe to rake or gouge with? I was hoping that some of the other members trained in the fighting arts might be able to help out on this. Robert

2nd February 2009, 10:03 PM	#9
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Great dagger Robert! In my FMA experience, I have never been shown any specific techniques using a pointed guard (maybe someone else has been though), otherwise I think you are right on: gouge/rake/poke ideas. Sharp and pointy can always be useful, if even just for the incidentals. It definitely adds interest to the piece, and I'm thinking that it probably has more to do with the artistic application of available materials than actually improving on the weapon - can you really improve on a blade like that!? Either way, a really nice dagger!

3rd February 2009, 03:20 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	This is an Ilocano dagger. May have been used in a form similar to espada y daga.

3rd February 2009, 10:58 PM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thank you for the identification Jose. I was waiting for it to arrive before posting my thoughts on its origin and who possible made it. Because of not being as knowledgeable as you and others on the forum, I wanted to see the end of the hilt before making my determination. What are your thoughts on the age of this piece? I was thinking either first or second quarter of the 20th century and hoping for the first. Thank you again for your help and interest. Robert

4th February 2009, 02:47 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	As far as age is concerned, I would rather wait for better pictures.

5th February 2009, 02:53 AM	#14
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Robert is it possible that the guard is made from the base of an old file? If the dagger was part of an espada y daga (sword and dagger) set, then it was intended to be used as a left-hand weapon and the longer guard may have been designed to serve as a "shelf" of sorts to help pass or parry the opponent's weapon, similar in idea to a main-gauche (hope that takes some of the mystery out of it).

5th February 2009, 02:58 AM	#15
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	This may be stupid, but could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka? I think I've seen a guard like that before, but can't remember. Steve

5th February 2009, 03:28 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	Robert, I would agree with you about the age. Although unusual for a Luzon piece, I have seen end caps on Ilocano daggers before. In fact, my Ilocano piece has a brass end cap. The cross guard is strange - no idea.

5th February 2009, 04:03 AM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	T_C, It very well could be made from a file. When new and sharp files are used in the shaping and finishing of blades and then when old and dull they are often made into blades and other parts. Waste not want not. Steve, I think you and Gene both might be on to something. He earlier said "The guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened. Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?" And now your idea "Could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?" Very interesting ideas. Robert