Africa,Naga,SEAsia?

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2005, 10:52 AM

Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 11:14 AM

In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2005, 12:08 PM

Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 02:06 PM

The photo fooled me; there looks like a rolled line running down the spike; thanks. I thought of the wood; someone could
ID it, but I didn't figure we coul dget anything meaningful from pictures; it looks mahagaesque, and there's so many of those. Likwise the carving is so basic; could easily be Berbese, or Nepali or probably anything else. I think maybe the only other bare wooden sheaths I've seen coming out of Africa are on flyssas? It's also not very European, and is frankly where I feel my S America idea may fall apart, too....

Conogre · 17th April 2005, 02:10 PM

This is another of those "look at, digest and come back later to look again" pieces.
Rather than being a military item, I suspect that it's either a settler's item, an overseer's item or a colonist's piece, such as a profesional hunter or such.
My basic "gut feeling" is that it was made to be used in Africa, rather than to be taken home and showed off, with India coming in a distant 2nd.
While nothing more than the meerest indicator, I've got an antique sword cane that's ENTIRELY leather wrapped, made in the distinctive "western" style and with a definite hand-forged blade that has the same pattern worked into the leather as is shown in the scabbard.
The only thing about the cane that I'm 100% sure of, by the way, is that is NOT human skin, as was related to me when I recieved it, an attribution almost solely reserved for African leatherworks.
The aluminum band at the bottom and the rubber tip were my own contributions as I used it for a while, PRE-9/11.
Mike

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 03:20 PM

You'rs so right, Congre; this one is a puzzler, at least to me. The sword itself looks European/Eurocolonial to such extent, and the sheath not, that I wonder if the sheath is a replacement made for it at a later date (?), perhaps for a nonEuropean owner, or just in a nonEuropean country by local craftsmen.
A randomish addition to the discussion is that some European mountan-hiking canes/staves have a small spear tip similar to this or to that on a kayan. I once had a Swiss one that was missing a screw-on sheath for more civilized circumstances, and thought it would be just as dandy as a sword cane; a spear cane.....
Ha ha "Congre"; now you're almlost an eel; I just cannot spell your name lately; first conagra (r. tm) then this.......

Conogre · 18th April 2005, 10:04 PM

You're confusing Conogre with Viagra, or at least blending the two, Tom, an easy ting to do at my age! **grin**
What the original piece actually reminded me of was the Ethiopian artillery style short swords, such as the one I sent to Hal, and if so, that would tend to back up an African origin.
Mike

17th April 2005, 02:10 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	This is another of those "look at, digest and come back later to look again" pieces. Rather than being a military item, I suspect that it's either a settler's item, an overseer's item or a colonist's piece, such as a profesional hunter or such. My basic "gut feeling" is that it was made to be used in Africa, rather than to be taken home and showed off, with India coming in a distant 2nd. While nothing more than the meerest indicator, I've got an antique sword cane that's ENTIRELY leather wrapped, made in the distinctive "western" style and with a definite hand-forged blade that has the same pattern worked into the leather as is shown in the scabbard. The only thing about the cane that I'm 100% sure of, by the way, is that is NOT human skin, as was related to me when I recieved it, an attribution almost solely reserved for African leatherworks. The aluminum band at the bottom and the rubber tip were my own contributions as I used it for a while, PRE-9/11. Mike Attached Images

17th April 2005, 03:20 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	You'rs so right, Congre; this one is a puzzler, at least to me. The sword itself looks European/Eurocolonial to such extent, and the sheath not, that I wonder if the sheath is a replacement made for it at a later date (?), perhaps for a nonEuropean owner, or just in a nonEuropean country by local craftsmen. A randomish addition to the discussion is that some European mountan-hiking canes/staves have a small spear tip similar to this or to that on a kayan. I once had a Swiss one that was missing a screw-on sheath for more civilized circumstances, and thought it would be just as dandy as a sword cane; a spear cane..... Ha ha "Congre"; now you're almlost an eel; I just cannot spell your name lately; first conagra (r. tm) then this....... Last edited by tom hyle; 17th April 2005 at 03:22 PM. Reason: "ha ha.....etc."

17th April 2005, 10:52 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	Hello Tom,that had crossed my mind,I am open to all suggestions,for the time being I am happy with German East Africa, the spike is very much a mini version of the end spike an E African spears.Thanks all Tim.

17th April 2005, 11:14 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In ways, yes, perhaps especially in the decorative(?) effect, but note how it was formed; by being curled up from a flat piece; it looks to me like I can see that not only the hollow part that grabs the sheath, but the long spike, also, was formed this way. This is the way some kayan spikes I've seen are formed. The African spear "ferules" (the old/traditional Euro. collector/anthropologist term for them) I've seen, in contrast, were forged from a rod, whose end was flattened and then curled to form the socket.

17th April 2005, 12:08 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,782	Hello,the spike is forged from a rod and is solid.The wood does look very SE Asian but could equally be African.Funny when I first bought it yesterday my thoughts said Philippines.Tim

17th April 2005, 02:06 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The photo fooled me; there looks like a rolled line running down the spike; thanks. I thought of the wood; someone could ID it, but I didn't figure we coul dget anything meaningful from pictures; it looks mahagaesque, and there's so many of those. Likwise the carving is so basic; could easily be Berbese, or Nepali or probably anything else. I think maybe the only other bare wooden sheaths I've seen coming out of Africa are on flyssas? It's also not very European, and is frankly where I feel my S America idea may fall apart, too....

18th April 2005, 10:04 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	You're confusing Conogre with Viagra, or at least blending the two, Tom, an easy ting to do at my age! grin What the original piece actually reminded me of was the Ethiopian artillery style short swords, such as the one I sent to Hal, and if so, that would tend to back up an African origin. Mike