Benin Knife

Rod Charters · 7th January 2009, 07:41 PM

Hi I'm in Kenya and I've been offered the below knife which is claimed from Benin. It is very heavy and probably bronze and maybe some brass and copper. It is nearly 2 feet in length. The blade is fairly thin and may be a newer addition to the knife. A fairly unusual knife it seems and because of the weight I would assume ornamental. Can I please get some advise on its possible authenticity and a bit about such a knife. In terms of history as far as I know it was brought to Kenya by W African dealers about 20 years ago. Also if authentic is there someone here that I could email and get an rough appraisal

Rod Charters · 7th January 2009, 07:50 PM

Please find a few more pics below

Tim Simmons · 7th January 2009, 10:38 PM

I do not think this is from Benin. To me it looks more like from further south to the present day Nigeria/Cameroon. There are many bronze and brass bladed weapons from Africa. What bothers me is all mine have clean blades. The patina on this is extreamly strong, also covering the blade which does make me wonder that somebody has worked very hard here.
Here is some metal work from the same regions. I am not an expert but I would not spend too much money on this. It is just so heavy patinated and the symbolisim is not terribly clear. Fon artifacts are often made to look arcane but this is not Fon. The artifacts in the first two pics I show, I know they were collected at the begining of the turn of the 19/20th century I bought most of the collection. Why they are so patinated is hard to say. I have not read of of the need to express antiquity in the artifacts of this region. Perhaps they have been in the ground. I think there is some difference it the green stain. I could be wrong.

katana · 7th January 2009, 11:09 PM

I have also seen this type of knife ...usually described as from Cameroon. I too would be wary of the patination. Many of these appeal to African Art collectors and dealers ......... there is a cottage industry supplying the demand. I think, only 'a hands on' examination would help to sort 'those made to sell' and the authentic.

Regards David

Bill M · 8th January 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I would not spend too much money on this. It is just so heavy patinated and the symbolism is not terribly clear.

Looks made for "western eyes." Detail is not clean as would be the case in authentic older pieces from that area. In most African cultures the earlier pieces are much finer made than newer. Most westerners seem to think the opposite would be true.

See, "African Art in Transit."

http://books.google.com/books?id=g8o...result#PPP1,M1

and

http://shopping.msn.com/reviews/afri...art-in-transit

Rod Charters · 8th January 2009, 05:11 PM

Thanks for all the feedback and most useful. I was particularly concerned at the quality of the blade and somehow this just did not tally with the rest of the knife. And now I understand that the quality is poorer than what it should be. I will see what price is being asked and decide whether or not to buy but if I do buy I'll assume its a more recent piece. Once again thanks for the feedback.

Freddy · 9th January 2009, 05:23 PM

I believe so far no one has mentioned the tribe.

In the book 'De fer et de fiérté' is a similar example (but the sheath is more plain) on page 67.

This type of knife/sword comes from the Véré-tribe living on the northeastern border of Nigeria and Cameroon.

Rod Charters · 9th January 2009, 06:07 PM

Hi Freddy thanks for the additional details. Having thought a bit about the comments above it strikes me that a fairly considerable amount of work has gone into this making the scabbard and hilt, thjough not the blade. I made for the Western market I assume they makers were getting fairly good prices for these "fake" pieces. Is this correct to assume? Best Regards Rod

Martin Lubojacky · 9th January 2009, 11:55 PM

Hello,

Just a remark to the Freddy´s statement.

This is probably Vere or very simmilar to Vere (as far as comparision with pictures - also in Zirngibl books or on internet - is concerned). I do not have tribal map for disposal, but based on what I have seen before this style of work should be comming from the Mandara Mountains region (as already said -North Nigerian - Cameroonian borderland), probably willages between Rhumsiki and Guili. The patina seems really to be artificial, but, on the other side, this kind of daggers was often produced for ceremonial and symbolic uses with corresponding quality of blade.

My opinion is genuin ("tribaly used") Vere knives are extremely very rare, it is too much difficult to obtain them.

Regards,

Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 10th January 2009, 12:14 AM

Sorry - one more remark to the quality of the work. I could be mistaken, but my opinion after eight years spent in Africa is, that you will never find absolutely "clean details" on the brass (or any other copper alloys) African artefacts comming from 20 th century (to find this you should go deep to old Benin Kingdom times) - and artefacts from the very beginning of 20 th century are considered "old", here. Ornamentation on the sheath and handle is made well, whether it is fake or genuin dagger.

Martin

Rod Charters · 10th January 2009, 10:14 PM

This is very interesting and thanks. I do however remain a bit confused. To buy or not to buy. I suppose this will really depend on the price and what risk I am prepared to make as I have had no experience W African knives. Thanks

Tim Simmons · 10th January 2009, 10:44 PM

Rod, it is an attractive souvenir and a nice reminder of your trip. The sellers have the wrong idea as to its origin which is telling. In my opinion it is not rare or old. Is it real cultural piece? well I suppose it could be. All I can say is that the figures on the handle do not appeal to me one bit, same with the blade. I do not like the patina either.

Looking again I am sure the top part of the handle, the figures, are from a mould so to make lots of them. Look and you can see the flashing round the edges and the supposed hand coiled wax is all smudged and very poor so I will say buy something else. There must be real crafts people around perhaps a nice piece of pottery?

Rod Charters · 12th January 2009, 08:37 AM

Thanks Tim appreciate the detailed feedback. Actually I live on and off in Kenya so not really interested in other souvenirs. The dealer is well known to me, is acting as a middle man for someone else who bought the item some 20 years ago, and also had no real idea of the authenticity nor origins of the item. Whilst I am an avid collector of knives and building a sizable collection I am no expert and rely heavily on advice so have very much appreciated the feedback. Regards Rod.

7th January 2009, 07:41 PM	#1
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Benin Knife Hi I'm in Kenya and I've been offered the below knife which is claimed from Benin. It is very heavy and probably bronze and maybe some brass and copper. It is nearly 2 feet in length. The blade is fairly thin and may be a newer addition to the knife. A fairly unusual knife it seems and because of the weight I would assume ornamental. Can I please get some advise on its possible authenticity and a bit about such a knife. In terms of history as far as I know it was brought to Kenya by W African dealers about 20 years ago. Also if authentic is there someone here that I could email and get an rough appraisal Attached Images

7th January 2009, 07:50 PM	#2
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	more pictures Please find a few more pics below Attached Images

7th January 2009, 10:38 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not think this is from Benin. To me it looks more like from further south to the present day Nigeria/Cameroon. There are many bronze and brass bladed weapons from Africa. What bothers me is all mine have clean blades. The patina on this is extreamly strong, also covering the blade which does make me wonder that somebody has worked very hard here. Here is some metal work from the same regions. I am not an expert but I would not spend too much money on this. It is just so heavy patinated and the symbolisim is not terribly clear. Fon artifacts are often made to look arcane but this is not Fon. The artifacts in the first two pics I show, I know they were collected at the begining of the turn of the 19/20th century I bought most of the collection. Why they are so patinated is hard to say. I have not read of of the need to express antiquity in the artifacts of this region. Perhaps they have been in the ground. I think there is some difference it the green stain. I could be wrong. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th January 2009 at 11:03 PM.

7th January 2009, 11:09 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I have also seen this type of knife ...usually described as from Cameroon. I too would be wary of the patination. Many of these appeal to African Art collectors and dealers ......... there is a cottage industry supplying the demand. I think, only 'a hands on' examination would help to sort 'those made to sell' and the authentic. Regards David

8th January 2009, 05:11 PM	#6
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Thanks for all the feedback and most useful. I was particularly concerned at the quality of the blade and somehow this just did not tally with the rest of the knife. And now I understand that the quality is poorer than what it should be. I will see what price is being asked and decide whether or not to buy but if I do buy I'll assume its a more recent piece. Once again thanks for the feedback.

9th January 2009, 05:23 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I believe so far no one has mentioned the tribe. In the book 'De fer et de fiérté' is a similar example (but the sheath is more plain) on page 67. This type of knife/sword comes from the Véré-tribe living on the northeastern border of Nigeria and Cameroon.

9th January 2009, 06:07 PM	#8
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Hi Freddy thanks for the additional details. Having thought a bit about the comments above it strikes me that a fairly considerable amount of work has gone into this making the scabbard and hilt, thjough not the blade. I made for the Western market I assume they makers were getting fairly good prices for these "fake" pieces. Is this correct to assume? Best Regards Rod

9th January 2009, 11:55 PM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hello, Just a remark to the Freddy´s statement. This is probably Vere or very simmilar to Vere (as far as comparision with pictures - also in Zirngibl books or on internet - is concerned). I do not have tribal map for disposal, but based on what I have seen before this style of work should be comming from the Mandara Mountains region (as already said -North Nigerian - Cameroonian borderland), probably willages between Rhumsiki and Guili. The patina seems really to be artificial, but, on the other side, this kind of daggers was often produced for ceremonial and symbolic uses with corresponding quality of blade. My opinion is genuin ("tribaly used") Vere knives are extremely very rare, it is too much difficult to obtain them. Regards, Martin

10th January 2009, 12:14 AM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Sorry - one more remark to the quality of the work. I could be mistaken, but my opinion after eight years spent in Africa is, that you will never find absolutely "clean details" on the brass (or any other copper alloys) African artefacts comming from 20 th century (to find this you should go deep to old Benin Kingdom times) - and artefacts from the very beginning of 20 th century are considered "old", here. Ornamentation on the sheath and handle is made well, whether it is fake or genuin dagger. Martin

10th January 2009, 10:14 PM	#11
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	This is very interesting and thanks. I do however remain a bit confused. To buy or not to buy. I suppose this will really depend on the price and what risk I am prepared to make as I have had no experience W African knives. Thanks

10th January 2009, 10:44 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Rod, it is an attractive souvenir and a nice reminder of your trip. The sellers have the wrong idea as to its origin which is telling. In my opinion it is not rare or old. Is it real cultural piece? well I suppose it could be. All I can say is that the figures on the handle do not appeal to me one bit, same with the blade. I do not like the patina either. Looking again I am sure the top part of the handle, the figures, are from a mould so to make lots of them. Look and you can see the flashing round the edges and the supposed hand coiled wax is all smudged and very poor so I will say buy something else. There must be real crafts people around perhaps a nice piece of pottery?

12th January 2009, 08:37 AM	#13
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Thanks Tim appreciate the detailed feedback. Actually I live on and off in Kenya so not really interested in other souvenirs. The dealer is well known to me, is acting as a middle man for someone else who bought the item some 20 years ago, and also had no real idea of the authenticity nor origins of the item. Whilst I am an avid collector of knives and building a sizable collection I am no expert and rely heavily on advice so have very much appreciated the feedback. Regards Rod.