Mystery blade

Iliad · 28th December 2008, 08:50 PM

O K guys, this time I make no claims about anything, because I don't know what this blade is! So put the whips away; my back is still bleeding from my last foray into the forum. I bought this blade for peanuts as a rusted wreck with no handle. I cleaned it up and had a handle put on it, to make it into a nasty knife, very very sharp. Note the sawteeth on the back edge and the neatly formed notch on the front edge down near the hilt.
Was it part of a polearm?
Brian

Atlantia · 29th December 2008, 08:14 PM

Hi Brian,
Well I'll kick this one off then.
Firstly I like it.
I'm not sure what it is, but I always like that in a weapon!! Increases the fun of the investigation.
Whats the tang like on it? How about another picture with a sheet of paper next to it, and trace the blade then draw the tang on as close as you can remember so we can see it. Were there any marks on the tang?
Are there any marks on the blade?
Is the blade tempered or hardened in any way? Is it sharp?

My first though is that its home made or 'improvised' but as you say it does look a little chinese and might look nice mounted on a shaft.

The steel looks like its totally flat, which might suggest its been cut from an existing sheet and not shaped beyond the cutting of the profile.

But even hand made improvised weapons can be nice and have an interesting story to tell. Look at the amount of reused carving knives and the like that turn up! Or improvised trench/combat knives.

If nobody here has any strong feelings for it, might be worth reposting it in the Ethnographic section.

Gene

Iliad · 29th December 2008, 09:14 PM

Good Morning/Evening Atlantia
I shall attach pics of the mystery blade as it was when I got it, so you can see the tang for yourself. The only mark on the blade is that of 2 interlocked circles on each side of the raised bit on the back edge; you can just make them out in 2 of the first pics posted. I had wondered if they are marks of a vice used to hold the blade while shaping/sharpening. The blade was sharpish when I got it, but I have since improved on the sharpness; it is now a very dangerous weapon. I have no way of knowing if it is tempered or hardened, but it certainly proved much harder to sharpen than some other blades I have dealt with. Yes, it is flat steel.
Interesting thing about sharp weapons, whenever I show some of my swords, daggers etc to people and say "be careful, this is very sharp", the first thing they do is to touch the edge! A bit like a "wet paint" sign!
Brian

Atlantia · 29th December 2008, 09:22 PM

Hi Brian,
Thats very interesting, a long tang but not one which would have slabs fixed to it through holes?

So presumably it would be fixed into a handle with resin/heat some kind of glue..

Hopefully others will join with opinions! It does look to have some age.

I'll have another think.

I can see why you are thinking its a member of the polearm-Dao family but I don't know jack aboout them so we will need the experts to help there.

Gene

kisak · 30th December 2008, 06:54 PM

Odd proportions. The idea of it having started out as a pudao or some such struck me as well, possibly shortened down a bit as well? The original guard has a somewhat east-Asian feel too IMO. And while I don't really have any idea whatsoever how these polearms should be shaped, the "flatness" here makes me thing of ceremonial weapons and the like.

Iliad · 31st December 2008, 06:35 AM

I'm glad to be able to provide the opportunity for research, also glad that somebody other than me is baffled.
I am pleased that Gavin hasn't seen this posting yet, he'll probably say that it was made in Spain in the 1970's!

Brian

Gavin Nugent · 31st December 2008, 11:22 AM

G'day Brian,

I have been watching, I'd say Spanish, 1970's....whoops thinking out loud with my fingers again.
Would you be kind enough to post all dimensions including the origial tang length. Although there are somewhat Chinese influences in style, (I have a trousse/chopper of a vaguely similar shape and a very long replaced handle), the bevelled cutting edges tell me otherwise, all Chinese weapons I have and have seen, taper to the cutting edge from the spine where as this one doesn't. One thing that does appear Chinese to me though is the notch out in the blade near the hilt, I have seen this cut out where a tonkou should be but no evidence that one was ever present

My guess is that it is a big bad bowie knife of an unknown age

As long as it is sharp and holds an edge, it is a valuable user, glad to see you have given it some life back with a new hilt.

Gav

Iliad · 31st December 2008, 08:46 PM

G'day Gav, I had thought that with the South Africans having thrashed, absolutely THRASHED Australia at cricket, you'd be in hiding!
The dimensions are: overall length 45cm; Blade length 29cm; tang length (best estimate) 13cm; blade width at widest point 7 cm; blade width at sawback point 4.5 cm.
Did I mention that South Africa SLAUGHTERED Australia at the cricket?
Oh, how the mighty have fallen!

Cheers, Brian

kahnjar1 · 31st December 2008, 11:52 PM

Slaughtered you say?? To keep things "European" since we are in that Forum, more like Hung, Drawn and Quartered I would say..............don't be too hard on the Aussies though as we (New Zealand) have to play them soon!!

This blade, although not yet identified could be useful then!

Gavin Nugent · 1st January 2009, 01:07 AM

Ouch!!!

Thanks for the dimensions Brian. I'll ask that the Aussies go easy on our ANZAC brothers when they play and we do need to give the rest of the world a chance in sport too, have to keep it interesting. Did I ever tell you that I only support two teams guys, Australia and who ever plays NZ

My thoughts tend to point to an American Bowie, I beleive if it was Chinese, that hilt would have been longer, therefore the tang too would have been longer. If it was mounted onto a pole I too think the tang would have been longer and it would have two holes in it. The 13cm tang in consistant with the current overall length of the object although the cut out still has me thrown off a little...Given the time Brian and if to taste, a nice oval brass disk guard and some deer horn antler slabs from those lovely deer you have running around over there would look "choice bro"

Here is a joke too Brian and Stu, one that you probably wouldn't hear unless you visited your west Island.
Why is NZ's national symbol a silver fern?
Because they can't win gold!

All the best neighbours.

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 1st January 2009, 02:28 AM

G'day Brian, here is an image for comparison of a Chinese chopper,cleaver or trousse. Overall 44.5 cms, hilt 17cms, blade 5cms wide at the hilt, 9cms at the widest point, distal taper from the spine to the cutting edge, spine being a 1/4 inch thick.

Gav

kahnjar1 · 1st January 2009, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Ouch!!!

Thanks for the dimensions Brian. I'll ask that the Aussies go easy on our ANZAC brothers when they play and we do need to give the rest of the world a chance in sport too, have to keep it interesting. Did I ever tell you that I only support two teams guys, Australia and who ever plays NZ

My thoughts tend to point to an American Bowie, I beleive if it was Chinese, that hilt would have been longer, therefore the tang too would have been longer. If it was mounted onto a pole I too think the tang would have been longer and it would have two holes in it. The 13cm tang in consistant with the current overall length of the object although the cut out still has me thrown off a little...Given the time Brian and if to taste, a nice oval brass disk guard and some deer horn antler slabs from those lovely deer you have running around over there would look "choice bro"

Here is a joke too Brian and Stu, one that you probably wouldn't hear unless you visited your west Island.
Why is NZ's national symbol a silver fern?
Because they can't win gold!

All the best neighbours.

Gav

Sorry Gav but I can't let that one go without a response!! Australia thinks its colours are green and gold, but we all know its actually yellow--not gold

katana · 1st January 2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Ouch!!!

My thoughts tend to point to an American Bowie, I beleive if it was Chinese, that hilt would have been longer, therefore the tang too would have been longer. If it was mounted onto a pole I too think the tang would have been longer and it would have two holes in it. The 13cm tang in consistant with the current overall length of the object although the cut out still has me thrown off a little...Given the time Brian and if to taste, a nice oval brass disk guard and some deer horn antler slabs from those lovely deer you have running around over there would look "choice bro"

Gav

With the massive influx of Chinese migrant workers into America during the building of the railways, 19th C .....could this be a 'Chinese' inspired Bowie.....would certainly 'tie up' the 'loose ends'..

Regards David

Atlantia · 1st January 2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

G'day Brian, here is an image for comparison of a Chinese chopper,cleaver or trousse. Overall 44.5 cms, hilt 17cms, blade 5cms wide at the hilt, 9cms at the widest point, distal taper from the spine to the cutting edge, spine being a 1/4 inch thick.

Gav

Well, thats a great find Gav!
So there are a family of shorter blades of this shape.
Well, thats a great example to follow for a simple oriental restoration for this one.

Simple carved handle, doesn't have to be as elaborate as the one in your pic. little brass collar. Varnish it to give it that chinese look. Water based so you use nice thin coats and can stop it looking too 'fresh off the boat'.

What do you think Brian? This threads turned out to be quite good!

Iliad · 2nd January 2009, 08:48 PM

Thanks heaps guys, I was not sure if my little item was worth posting on the Ethno site, as it seemed to be too trivial for the experts to look at. I was expecting to be embarrassed by the responses!
I probably won't replace the handle as suggested, as I am not a handyman, hopeless with tools, can barely replace a lightbulb without assistance! I am a retired Accountant and have spent a lifetime behind a desk.
I will keep the item as a means of repelling intruders.............although if I did use it in this way, the Police would arrest me (easy way of gaining points towards promotion) and give the intruder kisses and cuddles.
Thanks again guys,
Brian

28th December 2008, 08:50 PM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Mystery blade O K guys, this time I make no claims about anything, because I don't know what this blade is! So put the whips away; my back is still bleeding from my last foray into the forum. I bought this blade for peanuts as a rusted wreck with no handle. I cleaned it up and had a handle put on it, to make it into a nasty knife, very very sharp. Note the sawteeth on the back edge and the neatly formed notch on the front edge down near the hilt. Was it part of a polearm? Brian Attached Images

29th December 2008, 09:14 PM	#3
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Good Morning/Evening Atlantia I shall attach pics of the mystery blade as it was when I got it, so you can see the tang for yourself. The only mark on the blade is that of 2 interlocked circles on each side of the raised bit on the back edge; you can just make them out in 2 of the first pics posted. I had wondered if they are marks of a vice used to hold the blade while shaping/sharpening. The blade was sharpish when I got it, but I have since improved on the sharpness; it is now a very dangerous weapon. I have no way of knowing if it is tempered or hardened, but it certainly proved much harder to sharpen than some other blades I have dealt with. Yes, it is flat steel. Interesting thing about sharp weapons, whenever I show some of my swords, daggers etc to people and say "be careful, this is very sharp", the first thing they do is to touch the edge! A bit like a "wet paint" sign! Brian Attached Images

31st December 2008, 11:22 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Haha, I have been watching G'day Brian, I have been watching, I'd say Spanish, 1970's....whoops thinking out loud with my fingers again. Would you be kind enough to post all dimensions including the origial tang length. Although there are somewhat Chinese influences in style, (I have a trousse/chopper of a vaguely similar shape and a very long replaced handle), the bevelled cutting edges tell me otherwise, all Chinese weapons I have and have seen, taper to the cutting edge from the spine where as this one doesn't. One thing that does appear Chinese to me though is the notch out in the blade near the hilt, I have seen this cut out where a tonkou should be but no evidence that one was ever present My guess is that it is a big bad bowie knife of an unknown age As long as it is sharp and holds an edge, it is a valuable user, glad to see you have given it some life back with a new hilt. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 31st December 2008 at 11:33 AM.

1st January 2009, 01:07 AM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Ouch!! Ouch!!! Thanks for the dimensions Brian. I'll ask that the Aussies go easy on our ANZAC brothers when they play and we do need to give the rest of the world a chance in sport too, have to keep it interesting. Did I ever tell you that I only support two teams guys, Australia and who ever plays NZ My thoughts tend to point to an American Bowie, I beleive if it was Chinese, that hilt would have been longer, therefore the tang too would have been longer. If it was mounted onto a pole I too think the tang would have been longer and it would have two holes in it. The 13cm tang in consistant with the current overall length of the object although the cut out still has me thrown off a little...Given the time Brian and if to taste, a nice oval brass disk guard and some deer horn antler slabs from those lovely deer you have running around over there would look "choice bro" Here is a joke too Brian and Stu, one that you probably wouldn't hear unless you visited your west Island. Why is NZ's national symbol a silver fern? Because they can't win gold! All the best neighbours. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 1st January 2009 at 03:32 AM.

1st January 2009, 02:28 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Image for comparison G'day Brian, here is an image for comparison of a Chinese chopper,cleaver or trousse. Overall 44.5 cms, hilt 17cms, blade 5cms wide at the hilt, 9cms at the widest point, distal taper from the spine to the cutting edge, spine being a 1/4 inch thick. Gav Attached Images

29th December 2008, 08:14 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Brian, Well I'll kick this one off then. Firstly I like it. I'm not sure what it is, but I always like that in a weapon!! Increases the fun of the investigation. Whats the tang like on it? How about another picture with a sheet of paper next to it, and trace the blade then draw the tang on as close as you can remember so we can see it. Were there any marks on the tang? Are there any marks on the blade? Is the blade tempered or hardened in any way? Is it sharp? My first though is that its home made or 'improvised' but as you say it does look a little chinese and might look nice mounted on a shaft. The steel looks like its totally flat, which might suggest its been cut from an existing sheet and not shaped beyond the cutting of the profile. But even hand made improvised weapons can be nice and have an interesting story to tell. Look at the amount of reused carving knives and the like that turn up! Or improvised trench/combat knives. If nobody here has any strong feelings for it, might be worth reposting it in the Ethnographic section. Gene

29th December 2008, 09:22 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Brian, Thats very interesting, a long tang but not one which would have slabs fixed to it through holes? So presumably it would be fixed into a handle with resin/heat some kind of glue.. Hopefully others will join with opinions! It does look to have some age. I'll have another think. I can see why you are thinking its a member of the polearm-Dao family but I don't know jack aboout them so we will need the experts to help there. Gene

30th December 2008, 06:54 PM	#5
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Odd proportions. The idea of it having started out as a pudao or some such struck me as well, possibly shortened down a bit as well? The original guard has a somewhat east-Asian feel too IMO. And while I don't really have any idea whatsoever how these polearms should be shaped, the "flatness" here makes me thing of ceremonial weapons and the like.

31st December 2008, 06:35 AM	#6
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	I'm glad to be able to provide the opportunity for research, also glad that somebody other than me is baffled. I am pleased that Gavin hasn't seen this posting yet, he'll probably say that it was made in Spain in the 1970's! Brian

31st December 2008, 08:46 PM	#8
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	G'day Gav, I had thought that with the South Africans having thrashed, absolutely THRASHED Australia at cricket, you'd be in hiding! The dimensions are: overall length 45cm; Blade length 29cm; tang length (best estimate) 13cm; blade width at widest point 7 cm; blade width at sawback point 4.5 cm. Did I mention that South Africa SLAUGHTERED Australia at the cricket? Oh, how the mighty have fallen! Cheers, Brian

31st December 2008, 11:52 PM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Slaughtered you say?? To keep things "European" since we are in that Forum, more like Hung, Drawn and Quartered I would say..............don't be too hard on the Aussies though as we (New Zealand) have to play them soon!! This blade, although not yet identified could be useful then!

2nd January 2009, 08:48 PM	#15
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Intruder repellent! Thanks heaps guys, I was not sure if my little item was worth posting on the Ethno site, as it seemed to be too trivial for the experts to look at. I was expecting to be embarrassed by the responses! I probably won't replace the handle as suggested, as I am not a handyman, hopeless with tools, can barely replace a lightbulb without assistance! I am a retired Accountant and have spent a lifetime behind a desk. I will keep the item as a means of repelling intruders.............although if I did use it in this way, the Police would arrest me (easy way of gaining points towards promotion) and give the intruder kisses and cuddles. Thanks again guys, Brian