Unusual South Indian Sword

[wepnz]

Hello all, I've been a lurker for a while and finally decided to join. I had accidently stumbled upon the world of ethnographic weapons and discovered the amazing vareity of weapons especially in those cultures outside of mainstream western media that exist (I admit my initial interest in weapons came about because of video games ). Anyhow I came across this website eventually as well, a primary interest of mine is in seeing actual weapons or depictions of them rather than just reading a tidbit somewhere (which is ofcourse still better than nothing). Such info was easily found on Japanese weapons (well they have become part of mainstream pop culture here in the west as well I guess) as well as Chinese ones. However, I have discovered less info on weapons from other areas such as South Asia (especially in terms of actual photos or depictions of them), I had initially not thought much of weapons from that area except for some strange (and in my opinion ineffective loooking) thin, bending, curving swords seen on goddess depictions. This is why I have found sites such as these to be an excellent source of information. For instance, I have since learnt about and grown to become a big fan of khandas . Anyway another bad habit of mine I talk too much! Well enough of boring intro from me.

Here is a sword which didn't look to be of Indian origin at all to me and I havn't seen on any other sites. It's a straight sword from the south and said to be from 16th century (earlier than most of the indian swords found out there). It has a sharp point tip, again unusual in Indian swords, and a thick rib running down center of blade and somewhat unusual wide hilt (though the site calls it typical) and widening of of blade near hilt. I quite like the look and style and am surprised that it has been on sale for so many monthes. It's from the Ashoka Arts website at : Sword at Ashoka Arts
Would appreciate any comments or additional info on this type of sword.

[dralin23]

hi wepnz
at thirst, hello in this forum. until some years i thought also that al indian weapons are curved sabres like tulwars ore maybe shamshir swords. i thought in india was also cheap quality weapons produced and also used. at one day i saw at an gun show the first khanda sword and this was the beginning from my khanda collection.( i bought not these khanda, i found an very better one).
your question now. yes these sword from ashoka is an realy good indian sword. it is also an rare sword. these sword was used from the hindus in the vijayangare period( 15-17th. ct) this swords was made for fighting.
if you would like find better informations lock in the great book from elgood " hindu arms and ritual" page 87-93. if these book not in your collection buy it, it is an great investment!!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Wepnz,

You must remember that India is a very big country, with a very different history. To try to get an idea, I would recommend that you buy books on the early history of India, buy you should be aware that most of the books only cover a specific area, like Rajasthan. Happy reading.

[Gonzalo G]

Not an unusual piece, as an indian pattern, neither a very old piece. There are much older pieces, in every configuration you can imagine. India is an amalgamation of peoples, nations and cultures of every sort. To begin with, I recommend you to read "The Indian Sword", by P. S. Rawson. It has many illustrations and explanations.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[ashoka]

"Not an unusual piece, as an indian pattern, neither a very old piece. There are much older pieces, in every configuration you can imagine"

By any measure these straight swords are not common or 'usual', and 16th/17th century is generally agreed to be early, if going by R.Elgood's book with the dating. Finding Indian swords older than this is not especially easy, but of course there are older pieces existing. It would be interesting to hear your argument that this is not an early sword Gonzalo, thanks. Rawson's book is generally accepted as being fairly flawed as far as dating/descriptions go, but it does show some interesting museum pieces in the illustrations.

[Lew]

Guys

It is against forum rules to discuss any items currently up for sale.

Lew

[Andrew]

Actually, it's discussion of auctions that is forbidden, Lew.

Stefan, let me know if you want me to lock this thread, or if you're okay with discussions about items you have offered for sale.

[ashoka]

Hi Andrew, the discussion already took place 3 months ago, but I was just interested to know whether Gonzalo was referring to this sword type in general, or the specific sword on the website with his comments. Certainly I am happy with discussion about any swords, that is the purpose of this forum after all! although perhaps my reply would have been more appropriate in September...

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Actually, it's discussion of auctions that is forbidden, Lew.

Stefan, let me know if you want me to lock this thread, or if you're okay with discussions about items you have offered for sale.

Does this mean items in the swap forum can be discussed?

[Dajak]

[QUOTE=Andrew]Actually, it's discussion of auctions that is forbidden, Lew.

If you put something for sale on an website is this also an auction ??


Ben

[asomotif]

Mmmm...
items on SWAP are not much different from items on other websites IMHO.

You can even advertise your website same as Artzi and Arjan do now and than. So than you could start discussing both an item on a website and swap

do's and don'ts are not easy in this field.


Pretty rare sword BTW IMHO / Not common or usual at all

[Andrew]

The discussion and/or posting of links or auction numbers to active, pending auctions is prohibited. This policy is intended to deter the possibility of a claim that a discussion on the forums soured or otherwise spoiled the auction process resulting in a financial loss to those involved.

Penalties:
Mention of or otherwise referencing an open auction.

1st offense: 10 day ban
2nd offense: 30 day ban
3rd offense: Permanent ban

Discussion of auctions should never include editorial comments about the seller. Please take those discussions to private e-mail.

and

6. SPECIAL SWAP FORUM POLICIES

You must own and be able to transfer clear title to what you are selling.

If you buy, sell or trade on the Swap Forum, you do so entirely AT YOUR OWN RISK - Vikingsword does not warrant that your transaction will be completed to your satisfaction.

If you are the seller of an item or have any financial or personal relationship with the seller of an item which, to the most paranoid among us, could constitute a conflict of interest, then any post you initiate about such item belongs in the swap forum. If your only interest or connection is as a potential bidder or buyer of the item, this restriction does not apply, however, you agree to hold all forum members acting in good faith harmless, should you base any purchase decision upon information from such a discussion.

If someone else has initiated discussion on any item for which the preceding paragraph applies in your case, you may reply to and participate in the discussion, but must in each such reply include a statement of your actual or potential commercial interest in the item.

There is no enforceable external legal constraint against posting an object for discussion in a forum such as ours and later deciding to sell the item and posting a link to the discussion in the forums. However, if a forum member does this without having received the permission of the authors of the relevant posts in advance for such commercial use of their remarks, this constitutes grounds for cancellation of the offender's forum registration.

Honestly, I don't see the confusion.

Let's get back to discussion of the weapon. I find debate over the forum rules tiresome.

[wepnz]

Ah, I was meaning to reply to this but the time just slipped by. Anyhow I agree with Ashoka (I'm guessing you are actually from the Ashoka Arts site), I find this sword unusual and rare. I am planning to find some time to look up Rawson's book which is rare to find and havn't yet thoroughly checked other detailed tomes, but from common reference books or anything on the web this type of sword simply cannot be found. I have not found it on any auction sites, arms dealers or swap forums.

Also another reason this sword is probably old, because the post 17th century examples are dominated by curved tulwar or khanda and firangi type for straight swords. An interesting feature as I noted is the sharp point, and this convergence to the point actually begins quite a ways before in the blade so it's it's a smooth triangle all the way back to hilt. Many of the straight swords have khanda type flange like heads or straight uniform width blade with triangle point at end liek gladius. Closest thing are sword in sculptures which date back to earlier periods (actually one of the few sources for earlier centuries as very few pieces seem to exist before 16th). Yet again I don't see long flowing point like this sword, usually they bulge out before coming to a point.

In fact, if it hadn't been noted on the site as Indian origin, I would never have guessed it. The handle and hilt are the only Indic like features at first, yet even the pattern on the pommel could be mistaken for Chinese type styling. I would appreciate if Gonzalo can refer me to any other examples of this type of Indian sword.

[Gonzalo G]

Hi. I only meant what I wrotte. I was not talking about commercial availability or scarcity, but about the type of sword. And age is relative, as in the India´s timeline, this is not a very "old" sword, meaning from the 7th Century, to mention a date. You must understand that this statements are made in response of some doubts about the indian origin of this specific sword. And you know that there are very old references and representations of straight indian swords with this kind of hilts, MUCH older than the 16th Century. As for this specific piece, I don´t have any doubt it is as old and scarce as you say. But the type is much older and was more common in India than some people seems to believe. This is not a point related to the actual value, or importance, of this specific piece, but to to the knowledge of the history of the indian swords, and their diversity. There is not the smallest intention to minimize, or to question values, age, scarcity, etc., of a piece on auction or sale, as it has never been of my interest.
Regards

Gonzalo
Gonzalo