Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Gentlemen,

I feel so happy to be in this Forum.
You all are wonderful people each one very unique.

I threw in this theme and have been following it as close as possible. Not intervening is not lack of interest but viewing and thinking.

I would think that on such topics there are the first issues that are what we call in Portuguese as breaking the stone, which is brainstorming.

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context.

Later it would be time to sumarize everything by discussing how to come up with ideas for measures or just simply conclude there are no measures to be taken...

Shall we proceed?
Thank you all.

Hi Antonio , I think in the case of the S.Philippines we can have no real resurgence until some sort of a solution has been reached in the Christian/Muslim question . I truly fear for the future of my beloved Moro weapons .

[Mark]

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:

Lung Som is 57 now and a 4th generation sword maker. He pretty much owns the entire village there in Aranyik but he still gets his hands dirty on a regular basis. As a young man he was given a royal commission and when he presented the sword to the king, the king gave him a mandate to keep traditional sword making alive in Thailand. He has made several swords for the royal family and has the pictures to prove it throughout his shop.

So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

[Rivkin]

I'm sorry for being a little bit overly pessimistic about ship modeling - I'm sure it's alive, just like sword making in America is also quite alive. And most likely the needed for personal interaction with a master/good marketing will prevent complete outsourcing of this and sword making industries.

However the market share did move and does move drastically from individually hand made items to the semi-mass produced ones, leaving very few in the business.

Concerning the anti-sword attitudes - I believe the sheer number of "samurai swords" sold every year is enough to recreate Sekigahara. Under every tree you can find a sensei teaching secrets of ninjutsu.

Does it transform into buying traditionally made swords ? Hell no.
At best it goes to Paul Chen and his cuties.

The reasons in my opinion are as follows:
a. There is no need for expensive real thing when something mass produced cuts (not exactly as well as the real thing).
b. With a mass produced thing you get a sword stand, cool dragon on your tsuka, and the certificate that tells you that this is a Masamune's sword.
c. Modern traditionally made swords are very often worse in quality than similarly priced antique swords.

In short, we are all going Kubachi's road - bad blades in all silver scabbards.

[Rick]

Oh I agree Rivkin , the average consumer cannot afford the masterpieces so they settle for something that looks good at an affordable price .
I think though that this is nothing new in the art and craft world .

It has always been the wealthy patron that has kept the best of anything alive be it food , art , yachts or automobiles .

I'm not sure if I am drifting away from Antonio's original question here ,(probably am )

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

This is similar to Ariel's concern about the Chinese making reproduction swords from other cultures, yes? To me, in a way, it's no big deal, because I am interested in swords; and it is not oldness or some impossible ideal of cultural purity, BTW, that defines a real sword, but whether it is a real sword for really using as a sword. I've seen some real crap out of China, but then I've seen quite a lot of good metalwork, too, and I've seen crap from almost everywhere (Germany, believe it or not). Of course, what is a real cultural object is a quite seperable matter. Viewed from the perspective of the sword as a living art form, the problems of removing styles from their native cultures and of mass production are huge, but we're fighting the whole drive of the overculture to internationalize, to economize, and to standardize everything. It's a steep wall to climb there; I climb it in my own way; I salute you for standing at the bottom of it and trying to figure out where you're gonna grab on.

Hi Tom,
Actually I am convinced that the region of Long Quan was the craddle to Chinese steel swords.
It would be of great interest to study Chinese swords, not in books but in physical terms, for the jia-gang (sandwiched steel) and other forms existed in China.
Why it has not been kept so alive is something I am still to understand in depth.
However I may found a natural-cultural reason. The Chinese were not expansionists by nature.Their concept of Zhong Guo (The Middle Kingdom) was much more important. Only the Yuan Dynasty and Qin (Ching) Dynasty were respectively Mongol and Manchu, perhaps a reason that the self enclosure did not rely on any paramount legend about the sword.
Overculture, on another aspect of your post, seems to be unstoppable. Uniformization is the word of the day which carries benefits, if we see it as a way (not being carried out) to redistribute wealth to the less developped countries (which is more utopic then doable in a willing way).
But it does have these lost things. The issue in the end is that the overculture is so full of its political righteousness that it is like a tsunami...

[Battara]

But Rick, I think you have a point (besides the one on your head ). It has been wealthy patrons who commissioned works of weapory art, most being court nobility. In today's world, outside of government, it will be the same like it is with custom knife making here in the US (as had been previously mentioned).

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Antonio , I think in the case of the S.Philippines we can have no real resurgence until some sort of a solution has been reached in the Christian/Muslim question . I truly fear for the future of my beloved Moro weapons .

Hi Rick,

I fully understand. I myself love those moro keris.
Let us hope positions do not get more intransigent.
Peace should be the most easy thing in the world to achieve.

[Rick]

I think the Chinese government has many bigger and more important fish to fry at this point in their existence .

I also remember that this culture once had great fleets of treasure ships and then abruptly ended the venture .
Didn't they also invent the clock and then abandon its use at one point in history ?

I would not be surprised that when they get their ducks more in a row that they will turn more and more to encouraging traditional artisans .

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:



So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

Thanks for the link Mark
If you didn't revive it, I wouldn't ever be able to view it.

Lung Som may have the commercial side to support his other artistic lines.
But the fact was that my own reaction when I was there was that I found the bowies to be too expensive and ended up feeling a bit awkward for not seeing only dhas. I could understand the commercial part, but I don't know, I wasn't convinced. But maybe I'm too picky.

In was wondering how are those swords that Dan ordered. Not long ago, Dan still mentioned he had not received anything.

This is the part that can scare away customers, for Asia is known to usually be very fast at doing things.

Cheers

[VANDOO]

DURING THE PERIOD OF COMMUNIST TAKEOVER AFTER THE NATIONALISTS WERE DEFEATED IN CHINA, ALL THINGS TRADITIONAL WERE FROWNED UPON BY THE RED GAURD. MANY EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE AND MANY THINGS DESTROYED IN ORDER TO ENFORCE THE NEW ORDER OF THE LITTLE RED BOOK. TODAY CHINA IS INTERESTED IN BUILDING WEALTH AND GAINING POWER, MILITARY AND OTHERWISE TO AQUIRE MORE TERRITORY. THEY ARE OUT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE POWER IN THE WORLD AND HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND DETERMINATION TO DO SO. BUYING UP RAW MATERIALS AND USING THEIR LARGE AND INEXPENSIVE WORKING CLASS TO PRODUCE CRAFTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND UNDERSELLING EVERYONE ELSE IS HELPING TO BUILD THIS WEALTH/ POWERBASE. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING AS LONG AS THEIR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT TRY TO USE FORCE TO TAKE WHAT THEY WANT AND IMPROVES THE LIVES OF THEIR PEOPLE. HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE WEALTH COULD BE USED TO KEEP TRADITIONAL CRAFTS GOING UP TO THEIR PAST AND CURRENT QUALITY.

ONE SURE WAY TO PRESERVE THE TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND KNOWLEGE WOULD BE TO FIND THE MASTERS AND FILM ALL THEIR TECKNIQUES AND SECRETS. A FILM AND A BOOK OF THEIR INSTRUCTIONS AND TECKNIQUE STEP BY STEP WOULD AT LEAST GIVE A FUTURE CRAFTSMAN INFORMATION TO START WITH. THIS WOULD BE IMPOSIBLE IN MANY INSTANCES AS THE MASTERS WOULD NOT BE WILLING TO SHARE ALL THEIR SECRETS. LEARNING FROM THE MASTER DIRECTLY AS AN APPRENTENCE IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN FROM BOOKS OR FILMS AS HE IS THERE TO CORRECT YOUR MISTAKES AND GIVE YOU ADVICE. SOMETIMES THE OLD WAYS ARE BEST

[Antonio Cejunior]

Dear All,

I hope I am not committing a sin here, but based on this post I have started a thread about Bladesmiths: what future today and tomorrow
I thought that many of you gentlemen could provide a further input.

Dear Moderators, I'm in no way trying to fish anyone from this wonderful forum, but really hoping to see more inputs. However if you feel I am breaking any rule, please kindly delete this post.

Thank you

[Rick]

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Rick

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters .

Thanks Rick,

It is a new pond

[Battara]

Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Battara

Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around.

Most welcome.
I just didn't want anone to think I'm fishin'

[Emanuel]

Greetings to all,
I am but a newcomer to ethnographic arms collecting and my knowledge and collection are quite limited - as are my resources. I hope my adding my own thoughts to the questions of Mr. Conceicao won't be taken as intrusive and wrongfully placed.

Why precisely do we collect/design/forge swords? Why is this craft so appealing and so powerfull? Why must it be preserved?
First of all I think that edged weapons must be differentiated between art pieces and tools. While the first may indeed be fully functional as a weapon, it is not conceived as such. Both are representative of culture, yet lately I think culture has been directly associated with art. The weapon as tool, on the other hand is unfortunately doomed to oblivion without a purpose. A tool is discarded when no longer usefull; the same applies to weapons. This is what sadens me.

Patronage of swordsmiths was always for a specific purpose. To keep a master forger capable of creating the best weapons was an obvious advantage. To keep one for his reputation and for the creation of art pieces was a trend that developed later. To sponsor one for the utter beauty of his craft was another.
These are different needs. The first is for protection and attack. It is a tool for killing, ideally only suited for the military. The old nobility originally became noble in payment for valourous martial service. One was knighted for one's bravery, military prowess, etc... Swords were commissioned for brutal use and in commemoration of military feats and achievements. Swords were revered and held for generations to remember those feats, to show one's worth and lineage, and ultimately to accumulate prestige. The sword was defined by its use and its owner, it absorbed the user's life as well as that of the victim. The sword was held for its perceived power, as well as for its quality. A blade's life is the only thing, besides its quality, that differentiates it from all others. Is it too presumptuous of me to say that what a weapon collector still seeks when acquiring an antique weapon it to somehow benefit from its power? The respect and awe with the culture that produced the weapon is another thing, the marvel that a society could produce such items. From the scant knowledge I've accumulated, I think this feeling was best experienced - and still might be - by the Japanese. What pieces of literature I have glimpsed, presented a union of poetry, music, and armed aggression. Only in Asia it seems, is the power of the sword so wonderfully expressed. The life of a blade, summed up by a Haiku.

The second need was for show. Sword as status symbol, as an expected representation of one's station in life. As art pieces swords have a far different power. They are testaments to man's craft, yes, but they are not for killing. I can appreciate their worth and what they represent, as I can marvel at a painting. I have stood for hours, transfixed by the flawlessness of a sculpture whose skin pulsed with life and whose eyes bore into my soul, as I have shuddered at the beauty of some gem-and-gold-encrusted blades and tsubas with microscopic details. But ultimately they nad no function save the aesthetic.

Who commissions great paintings or sculptures these days? Who erects a palace? Who commissions a sword. The wealthy, the money aristocracy who can afford it. The commissioned sword however is still not for use. It is to be hanged in a lavish environment as an expression of its owner's taste and ideals. Who commissions a sword for killing? Damascene blades are coveted mostly for their beauty, not for their performance. As a tool, the sword is obsolete. In the 21th century, the craft that produces such a tool is also obsolete. The remaining craftsmen focus on the creation of art.

Thus, the preservation of craftsmanship is quite complicated. Here I feel the distinction between crafts must be made. A group or government may support crafts in the guise of art and culture. But I strongly believe that the craft of the weapon-tool as a separate entity will not be supported for long. I'm sorry I cannot provide solid academic references to my statements, all I can stand on is what I've seen happening in the world. The weapon-smiths of Europe have dissappeared, Toledo is in the tourist trade and Solingen in the custom art pieces. China replicates everything in a good-enough-for-your-eyes manner. Even in Indonesia/Malaysia/Java, the keris seems to have lost some of its mystique, fabricated far from its traditional place of origin, in any manner suitable to the owner. This is indeed a sort of preservation. North-America, as stated earlier in the post, keeps bladesmithing alive and strong, but the new work is still different. It is impressive to whitness the rediscovery of pattern-welding, damscus, and other techniques thought lost, and the work done is quite beautiful. My point however is that these modern pieces will not become the antiques of the future. A silver inlaid blade of exceptional quality and finishing done today for a banker will never - in my opinion - attain the power of a 200 year old pala, takouba, or katana that has preserved the life and caused the death of a hundred souls.

Would it be possible to return the sword to its traditional use, to arm modern armed forces with swords as side-arms, it would give a valuable lesson in conducting warfare, one apparently forgotten by modern powers relying on artillery and aerial bombardments.

I've rambled on quite enough. I apologize once again if I've gone too far from the intended topic and if my comments are redundant.

Manolo