Info about Eastern Europe cavalryman ?

Jean B. · 18th November 2008, 01:42 PM

I am looking for information about Eastern European cavalrymen of the early 18th C. carrying two swords. A long thrusting sword attached to the sadle and a curved slashing sword hanging at the sword belt.

Information about country, regiments, period, details about the weapons and use, and, if possible, illustration, would be very welcome.

Jean

Chris Evans · 18th November 2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean B.

I am looking for information about Eastern European cavalrymen of the early 18th C. carrying two swords. A long thrusting sword attached to the sadle and a curved slashing sword hanging at the sword belt.

Information about country, regiments, period, details about the weapons and use, and, if possible, illustration, would be very welcome.

Jean

Hi,

Here is one link that may be of help: http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/comp/comp06.htm

Otherwise, do a search with key words such as Polish and Koncerz.

Cheers
Chris

Jens Nordlunde · 18th November 2008, 02:34 PM

I can't help you, but try to contact wolviex, as I am sure he would be able to answer all you questions on the subject.
Jens

Jean B. · 19th November 2008, 12:31 AM

Thanks for the link and info.

Jean

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2008, 04:49 AM

Hi Jean,
Your most interesting topic brings to my mind almost immediately, Rembrandt's famous painting "The Polish Rider" (1655) which was originally thought to be an officer of the Lisowski Cossacks. In the painting , prominant under the riders right leg is a clearly heavy sword mounted from the saddle, and on the riders left side can be seen the hilt of what is likely his sabre. While the later research more correctly identifying the rider is most interesting, we are focused on the weaponry he is carrying, and the large sword under his leg appears to be a heavy pallasch.

In European armies, of course in Polish as well, the heavy cavalry seem to have often carried these saddle mounted swords in addition to sabres, but typically they were the estoc (=French; Tuck- English; Koncerz-Polish) which was a long thrusting sword with diamond or triangular cross section for piercing mail or plate armor. Eventually these seem to have given way to the heavy pallasche that were apparantly for fighting dismounted, and as the use of armor diminished.

The only reference I can think of offhand is "Polish Armies 1569-1696" by Richard Brzezinski (Osprey, 1987) which does note these heavy swords, but I cannot recall in what degree. I do recall however an interesting note that shows a Sudanese rider in the late 19th century wearing an Ottoman sabre, and a large kaskara broadsword saddle mounted under his leg, reemphasizing the often romanticized presence of European influence in these regions in anachronistic manner.

This really is an interesting topic, and thought that the use of secondary swords mounted under the saddle may have been last used by the Polish Hussars and possibly into the 18th century. Not having really yet looked further, I am under the impression that most European heavy cavalry of the 18th century were dragoons, and essentially mounted infantry with firearms and with the heavy sword as secondary weapon. The light cavalry that developed had firearms as well, but relied heavily on thier light sabres.
At this point, undoubtedly with exceptions, I would think the type of sword carried was either heavy or light, rather than both.

By the latter 19th century, the cavalry sword had regained larger size, and once again returned to the saddle mount, with firearms at the fore.

Looking forward to your thoughts of course, and those of others!!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2008, 06:40 AM

Hi Jean,
Just following up with some more that I found,
Professor Zygulski in his great article "The Winged Hussars of Poland" (in 'Arms and Armor Annual Vol.I, ed. Robert Held, 1973) notes that in the latter 16th century:
"...the sabre remained the principal sidearm but an additional heavy sabre or pallasch- often a long tuck-was tied to the saddle".

Further, that by the latter 17th century, "...heavy pallasches or tucks with long blades were strapped, as usual, to the saddles".

In other references the estoc, or tuck continued in use through the 17th century particularly in Eastern Europe and Russia, and known as the 'koncerz'.
Another note mentions that by the end of the 16th century the German form of tuck began using more developed guard with quillons and ring guard from the simple cruciform hilt.

Those were the only specific references found so far, and it would seem that from Germany, to mostly Eastern Europe the secondary tuck or pallasche was possibly used by cavalry into as late as mid 18th century.

All best regards,
Jim

Jean B. · 21st November 2008, 12:24 PM

Thank you very much Jim

Jean

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean B.

Thank you very much Jim

Jean

You're more than welcome Jean! I'm glad I could return the favor for all the help you've given me through the years!

All the very best,
Jim

18th November 2008, 01:42 PM	#1
Jean B. Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 14	Info about Eastern Europe cavalryman ? I am looking for information about Eastern European cavalrymen of the early 18th C. carrying two swords. A long thrusting sword attached to the sadle and a curved slashing sword hanging at the sword belt. Information about country, regiments, period, details about the weapons and use, and, if possible, illustration, would be very welcome. Jean

18th November 2008, 02:34 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I can't help you, but try to contact wolviex, as I am sure he would be able to answer all you questions on the subject. Jens

19th November 2008, 12:31 AM	#4
Jean B. Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 14	Thanks for the link and info. Jean

19th November 2008, 04:49 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Jean, Your most interesting topic brings to my mind almost immediately, Rembrandt's famous painting "The Polish Rider" (1655) which was originally thought to be an officer of the Lisowski Cossacks. In the painting , prominant under the riders right leg is a clearly heavy sword mounted from the saddle, and on the riders left side can be seen the hilt of what is likely his sabre. While the later research more correctly identifying the rider is most interesting, we are focused on the weaponry he is carrying, and the large sword under his leg appears to be a heavy pallasch. In European armies, of course in Polish as well, the heavy cavalry seem to have often carried these saddle mounted swords in addition to sabres, but typically they were the estoc (=French; Tuck- English; Koncerz-Polish) which was a long thrusting sword with diamond or triangular cross section for piercing mail or plate armor. Eventually these seem to have given way to the heavy pallasche that were apparantly for fighting dismounted, and as the use of armor diminished. The only reference I can think of offhand is "Polish Armies 1569-1696" by Richard Brzezinski (Osprey, 1987) which does note these heavy swords, but I cannot recall in what degree. I do recall however an interesting note that shows a Sudanese rider in the late 19th century wearing an Ottoman sabre, and a large kaskara broadsword saddle mounted under his leg, reemphasizing the often romanticized presence of European influence in these regions in anachronistic manner. This really is an interesting topic, and thought that the use of secondary swords mounted under the saddle may have been last used by the Polish Hussars and possibly into the 18th century. Not having really yet looked further, I am under the impression that most European heavy cavalry of the 18th century were dragoons, and essentially mounted infantry with firearms and with the heavy sword as secondary weapon. The light cavalry that developed had firearms as well, but relied heavily on thier light sabres. At this point, undoubtedly with exceptions, I would think the type of sword carried was either heavy or light, rather than both. By the latter 19th century, the cavalry sword had regained larger size, and once again returned to the saddle mount, with firearms at the fore. Looking forward to your thoughts of course, and those of others!! All the best, Jim

20th November 2008, 06:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Jean, Just following up with some more that I found, Professor Zygulski in his great article "The Winged Hussars of Poland" (in 'Arms and Armor Annual Vol.I, ed. Robert Held, 1973) notes that in the latter 16th century: "...the sabre remained the principal sidearm but an additional heavy sabre or pallasch- often a long tuck-was tied to the saddle". Further, that by the latter 17th century, "...heavy pallasches or tucks with long blades were strapped, as usual, to the saddles". In other references the estoc, or tuck continued in use through the 17th century particularly in Eastern Europe and Russia, and known as the 'koncerz'. Another note mentions that by the end of the 16th century the German form of tuck began using more developed guard with quillons and ring guard from the simple cruciform hilt. Those were the only specific references found so far, and it would seem that from Germany, to mostly Eastern Europe the secondary tuck or pallasche was possibly used by cavalry into as late as mid 18th century. All best regards, Jim

21st November 2008, 12:24 PM	#7
Jean B. Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 14	Thank you very much Jim Jean