The Flyssa

[Gavin Nugent]

With the posting of Lews Beja daggers and Jim's reference to Celtic hilts I thought I would start another Flyssa origin post as after my reply...

Originally Posted by freebooter

Good point Jim,

I beleive over all there is something specific historically with Celtic influences in Northern African weaponry. One can also look at the Flyssa, put two back to back and you have the same shape as the Celtic swords.
here are just a couple of links for comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=62

Gav

I searched the forum for past postings and couldn't find any reference to the Flyssa and celtic swords being connected in any way so here it is people, time to come together and consider or debunk this theory as many other good and relevant points have been made about it's possible origins in past postings.
Jim with your knowledge of tribal movements throughout the world over the centuries I would be very interested to know if you or any other member here can provide any direction to the subject being possible, maybe the Roman movements within Africa did bring this knowledge with celtic slaves that was passed onto others???
Also below is an interactive map I found. With the Celts controlling northern Spain, albeit a very long time ago, it is possible swords found their way down into Northen Africa and were changed over time....
http://www.resourcesforhistory.com/

[kronckew]

the vandals, an eastern germanic tribe made their way down to spain and north africa and occupied the carthage area for a while.


looks like most of the areas they wandered thru before carthage was originally celtic.

[katana]

G'day Gav ,
a similar discussion on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=flyssa+bronze

Here's a picture posted by PBishop which illustrates the idea beautifully

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
Thank you for opening this thread on the flyssa, and for the interesting observation noting the similarity of curvature in some Celtic swords' blade profile to these mysterious North African sabres. Actually, I have heard this concept it seems, comparing the deep bellied profile of the flyssa to the half section of blades, but cannot recall the source at the moment. Most earlier discussions on flyssas have often suggested possible links to ancient Mediterranean swords, in particular the machaira, linked to the Celtibereans as well as to of course the classic kopis and falcata forms. While these influences seem compelling in degree, the main problem has been trying to establish any line of development chronologically between these ancient forms and any examples of proto-flyssa closer to this weapons relatively modern appearance.

It has been some time since we have had active discussions on the study of the flyssa here, so its great to have this thread to sort of compile what we know on these swords, and to evaluate and discuss that information as well as hopefully, any new data.

So here goes:

As noted, the flyssa seems to be a relative latecomer to traditional edged weapons, with one of the earliest known references being a letter to Ferdinand VII of Spain from his consul in Algeria in 1827. A French traveller named Carette several years later noted similar swords in trade from regions of Flica sur Mer. The term 'flyssa' derives from the French reference to the Iflissen Im Bahr tribe of Berbers in the Djurdjura range of the Little Atlas mountains in northeast Algeria, who are reputed to have been the 'Kabyles' who produced these distinct swords. The Kabyles are confederations of Berber tribes in these regions (Ar. gabail = the tribes).

An English encyclopedia in 1833 notes that the Kabyles, "...make guns, ploughs and many coarse utensils which they sell to the Arabs and Moors. They know how to temper steel and make sabres and knives of tolerable quality". While this reference confirms that the Kabyles did indeed have the ability to produce these weapons (actually of quite high quality despite the cyclopedia note), it also brings in an important reference to trade with the Moors.

In the epic work by Stone (pp.234-236), the flyssa is described as a Moroccan weapon. I had thought this apparant error might have been associated with the fact that the Kabyles were nominally Sunni Muslims of the Malakite Rite, whose center was in Morocco, and that contact may have diffused these to the west. The note on Moorish trade would further support these weapons possibly being found in Berber regions to the west. Altogether however the distinct flyssa form remains profoundly indiginous to the Kabyle regions.

With these observations it would seem that the flyssa, as a distinct edged weapon form (they range in size from smaller knives to very large swords), probably developed in Kabyle regions some time in the 18th century, and were actively established in production by the early 19th century. With the well known presence of the Ottomans long established across the Maghreb, we look to thier weapons as possibly influence for the flyssa.

In the reference "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent"(1990, p.64, #50) a yataghan of the 16th century attributed to this Ottoman ruler is remarkable in the blade form, contrary to the yataghan blades of later times. It is heavy, a straight back and bellied, quite similar to the shape of the flyssa blade.
While it is known that the remote Kabyle tribes were never technically subdued by either Arab or Turk, in the more metropolitan areas, they were in effect relatively assimilated. According to references in the important work by Camille LaCoste-Dujardin ("Sabres Kabyles", Journal de la Societe des Africanistes, Tome XXVIII, 1958) it was an important rite of passage for young Kabyle men to leave thier villages to make thier fortunes, then return to be married. In this quest for fortune, one key factor was for the young man to obtain his sword. The profoundly present Ottoman yataghan was extremely highly regarded in this sense, and it would not seem surprising that the developing sword of these Berbers would derive from these much admired Turkish weapons, and of course likely of the earlier blade form. As the more distinct Berber sword developed, it seems to have virtually taken on a life of its own. The strange zoomorphic pommel is among the many instantly recognizable features of the flyssa, though it has not been determined exactly what creature is represented.

The straight, deep bellied blade, carrying the characteristic geometric markings and chiselled decoration has the also distinct feature of a needle point tip on most examples. The exact purpose or derivation of this feature also remains undetermined, but in my opinion it may have to do with this stated 'malle perce' (armour piercing) purpose seen on the Tatar sabres of Caucasian regions. The presence of mercenary troops among the Ottoman forces may account for this influence.

The earliest example of a flyssa I have found was in a French Foreign Legion museum in France, and attributed to combat acquisition in 1857. Its form and decoration distinctly as most examples seen in collections today. In her work, Ms. LaCoste-Dujardin notes that around the 1850's the quality of these weapons was in decadence, and as the weapon itself became obsolete, with a clearly brief period of use, production for the developing trade in tourism became prevalent.

This is collectively transcribed from my notes at hand from much of the research done a number of years ago, and I hope will serve as a benchmark for further discussion and opinions on the observations I have included.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

G'day Gav ,
a similar discussion on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=flyssa+bronze

Here's a picture posted by PBishop which illustrates the idea beautifully

Regards David

Well done David!! Thats the reference I was trying to think of! I just posted so didnt see this until I closed my post. Thank you !!

[kronckew]

to echo david's celtic bronze halved, here is my flyssa doubled.

[Gonzalo G]

I must agree with Jim. There is no evidence of such connection as the celts and the flyssa. I feel this is a subject which passes throught the european etnocentrism, which sees a relation father to son with some oriental and african weapons. The machaira and the khukri is one of this cases. I find materially impossible that the vandals, which invaded Spain in the 5th Century AC and for just a little time, which had steel or iron swords with designs very different from the bronze age weapons, could take a bronze age design, appropiated for this metal but not for steel, to North Africa, and there, North Africans could split this design in two to make a new weapon.

The first thing the vandals should had to do, is archaeology, as the bronze age and it´s weapons dissapeared hundreds years ago. Very unlikely. The second thing, is abandom their modern weapons to change them for this heavy and cumbersome ones. Also unlikely. Spain, or Hispania, was in the second Iron Age on that time (or maybe latter), the celts already assimilated in many senses to a new society with different weapons.

And then, how should this weapon could survive in North Africa and evolve in secrecy to, let´s say, the 18th Century without traces of archaeological, literary or iconographic evidence on the hands on the berbers, though they had a very relevant historical role from the 11th to the 14th Centuries at least, not to mention their pirate activities on the Mediterranean to more recent times? Also very unlikely. The answer in obvious. The flyssa is originated on more recent events, different from the vandal invassion. The resemblance with the bronze age sword split in two is merely coincidental, IMHO.
Regards

Gonzalo G

[katana]

Now to put the 'cat amongst the pigeons'......

This is quite interesting..

http://amazighroots.blogspot.com/200...onnection.html

http://www.north-of-africa.com/artic...id_article=435


Regards David

PS This translated page (French) gives Berber First Names, Flyssa appears to be a female name....
http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

[katana]

Researching the Kabyles and the Iflisen (the group usually attributed as making the Flyssa) I found this.....battles with the Turks late 18thC -early 19thC ........are we back to the Yatagan 'relationship' ...it could explain why the Flyssa 'appeared' around that time


http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Regards David

PS Interestingly the Celts had also settled central Turkey ...a long time ago but some local traditions seem to survive.

[fearn]

Another neat discussion. Thanks Freebooter.

I have to disagree with Gonzalo, though. The bronze swords didn't disappear hundreds of years ago. What disappeared was the active manufacture and use of such blades. It's pretty easy for a smith to get a look at an old blade and use that as inspiration for his own work. This is especially true for work of more recent origin. Copying is not continuity, even if the people doing the copying are descendents of those who made the originals.

Here's an example: While it's not a weapon tradition, I like Mata Ortiz pottery, of which I have a nice sample. For those who don't know, this pottery is made in northern Mexico by people of Indian descent. It was specifically (and knowingly) inspired by the the ancient pottery designs of the Pueblo tribes in the southwest US in the 20th century, based on designs that archeologists were uncovering in digs of Anasazi and other regions.

Now, a bunch of the "Anasazi" are known to have migrated into Mexico around 1000 years ago, and so it's quite possible that the people of Mata Ortiz are (in part) their descendents. Nonetheless, they did not keep the tradition of Mata Ortiz pottery. They have revived it, based on old samples and modern teaching.

There's no reason that something similar couldn't have happened with the flyssa.

My 0.02 centavos,

F

[Gonzalo G]

I could take this on account as a possibility, if the vandals were modern man with time to spare digging for bronze swords and using them to be inspired in their design. But the knowledege and study of the anasazi implies the development of modern science, and to be inspired by them, a very modern attitude of a civilized man. I´m sure the vandals found more interesting and useful things in their path, and neverthless they taked them only as a booty. When they arrived to Hispania, the falcata, a weapon from the second iron age, was almost dissapeared completely. At least, this is what archaeology and archaeologists says.

By the way, there is a big and surprising resemblance among the anthena swords from the celts, and those same type of swords from the chinese. Both boronze swords. I wonder what does this implies is terms of connections.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

You're partially right, but the thing is, we don't have a deep historical record of the flyssa either, and an interest in the past goes back several hundred years in the Mediterranean (as does tourism). In the absence of archeological evidence for flyssa development, we can't sort out whether the flyssas are:

1. A cultural survival from the Iron Age (akin to katanas allegedly being a half ken), or more improbably from the Bronze Age
2, A independent local development,
3. A local adaptation of a yataghan, kopis, etc.
4. A redevelopment, based on either someone finding an old blade (tomb raiding, perhaps) or an old sculpture or other illustration.

As for the bronze swords, before the economy did it's little bubble and burp recently, I was thinking of going to the UK and making a replica myself (link). Looks like fun. Personally, if I'm going to own an antenna sword, it might be fun to cast it myself, with help from a smith.

F

[Gonzalo G]

Great idea Fearn!! It would be very nice to have one of those anthenae sword. The little bubble makes a little more difficult to get an original one...But for that purpose, if you can´t go there, you can make one in home. I mean, in your city. Apart form the technicalties, meaning smelting with bellows, the problem is to make a good authentic replica of a historic anthenae bronze sword.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

The subject of the mysterious ancestry of the flyssa has really brought in some great discussion here, and excellent observations. I honestly have been thinking a lot about things that have been brought up, and while the fascinating idea of the Rohrschach application, if you will, in bringing together two flyssa doppelgangers revealing an ancient Celtic sword is admittedly most appealing, it must remain hypothetical.The waisted blade on the Celtic example corresponds nicely with the deep belly on the flyssa, and presents a tempting suggestion, but without either well supported evidence or archaeological proof in examples of prototypes, cannot be developed as a theory.

The subject on Celtic influence in North Africa seems to be best considered as indirect diffusion. While the Celtic culture was clearly widespread over considerable ancient periods, it permeated many developing cultures, with its influences remaining as fiber in all of them. I was thinking, I myself carry Celtic influence, as clearly my surname reflects Scottish ancestry, and as often the case in American people, my geneology reflects Germanic and other influences, all Indo-European, as well. In this sense, Celtic influence did exist in North African culture. I think the link that David posted showed it well, reflecting linguistic associations between Berber language and Gaelic.

The development of the flyssa seems most likely as previously mentioned, through Ottoman influences, which indirectly seem to have evolved from the Meditteranean edged weapons that prevailed in ancient times; the kopis, the machaira and the falcata. These all have the prominant deep belly that seems to have become a key feature in a number of weapons in places such as India, and of course the kukri, which though associated with Nepal, seems to have earlier influences from India. There are of course other sword forms carrying this early Meditteranean influence, including the later developing yataghan of Turkey, bringing us to our point of contact.

Rather than progressive line of development, which of course we know does not exist presently in archaeological evidence, I believe there has been often in many cultures, a reaching for tradition in weaponry, which in many cases might best be considered sought in iconographical sources. Possibly this might explain the adoption of certain distinct features on weapons that have appeared with ancient appearance in relatively modern times. I believe there are a number of examples that reflect this possibility such as the shotel, and others such as the yataghan, therefore indirectly....the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The subject on Celtic influence in North Africa seems to be best considered as indirect diffusion. While the Celtic culture was clearly widespread over considerable ancient periods, it permeated many developing cultures, with its influences remaining as fiber in all of them. I was thinking, I myself carry Celtic influence, as clearly my surname reflects Scottish ancestry, and as often the case in American people, my geneology reflects Germanic and other influences, all Indo-European, as well. In this sense, Celtic influence did exist in North African culture. I think the link that David posted showed it well, reflecting linguistic associations between Berber language and Gaelic.

Rather than progressive line of development, which of course we know does not exist presently in archaeological evidence, I believe there has been often in many cultures, a reaching for tradition in weaponry, which in many cases might best be considered sought in iconographical sources. Possibly this might explain the adoption of certain distinct features on weapons that have appeared with ancient appearance in relatively modern times. I believe there are a number of examples that reflect this possibility such as the shotel, and others such as the yataghan, therefore indirectly....the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim, can I point that North Africa was the source of a much more ancient and developed culture than the celtan (the egyptian)? And also, that North Africa continued, thorught the hellenism, and latter throught the romanization, being a great culture? That when the celts were being assimilated to the roman-hipanian society, in the Alexandria Library the scientists were calculating with great precision the diameter of the earth, elaborating the heliocentric theory of the solar system and demostrating the roundness of the earth? I think there are lingüistic coincidencies trought all over the world, as with the sanscrit and the greek and in the other side the mayan, but no proof of intercourses among the mayan and the others. I know how many speculative theories have been elaborated in this respect. I must agree that the mediterranean basin was a great caouldron on great intercourses, but all time the influences are seen as comming from Europe, and this is not true. And even in the european Middle Age, there seem to be a more advanced culture in North Africa than in Europe. Plato, Aristotle and great part of the classic culture was preserved in Norh Africa when the barbarians destroyed it, almost obliterated it completely, in Europe. And they only recuperated it throught the arabs. I also think there is a clear evidence of a more advanced metallurgy in the islamic world, and thus of swordmaking, than in Europe. We need to make a comparative history lines, and see material evidence of such connections (archaeologycal and historical), to establish connections and influences among edged weapons, which I do not doubt they exist, but in a manner different as we have always supposed. And there are also, parallel invention and discoveries.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well put Gonzalo, and it is well that the dreary Euro-Centric 'Hamitic Hypothesis' and 'Dark Continent' images of African civilizations (as described by Basil Davidson in "Africa in History", 1966, p.11) have been substantially put to rest, and it is true of course that while Europe muddled through the Dark Ages, civilization in North Africa shone brightly.

Mostly what I was referring to in reference to 'iconographic' influence concerned the stylistic appearance of weapon forms in accord with images of clearly ancient examples. In looking at distinct forms such as the shotel, the kukri, the sapara and others that seem reflected in a number of ethnographic weapon forms that appear to have sprung up relatively recently in ethnic regions, to me suggests that they have been produced to recall proudly ancient tradition.

With respect to weapons that recall earlier traditions, but far more pragmatically, such as the takouba and kaskara, these certainly carry a degree of influence from the hilts of earlier swords from the Crusades period. However, thier development in volume as indiginous weapons was primarily a result of the influx of trade blades into those trade networks throughout North Africa. Therefore these swords developed more from known and actual weapons from those periods than from possibly iconographic images.

There can be no doubt that metallurgically, Islamic swordsmiths were far advanced and possibly a certain degree of their expertise may have entered European blademaking technology. One key to their expertise however, seems to have been primarily associated with the steel from the Indian Subcontinent known as wootz. While these cakes of premier quality steel was certainly exported to many places, the methods of forging it were held secret by Persian and Damascus smiths. There is considerable speculation that in some degree at least some part of their methods were incorporated into European methods, but as far as is known, the famed 'watered steel' was never entirely duplicated in the 'west' (that is until modern versions at least).

During these times in Europe, there was also fine steel found in the regions in the Rhineland, now Solingen; as well as Passau, to the Romans, Noricum.
The Franks were known for thier fine sword blades, and supplied most of Europe into the North, even at times, supplying Islamic armourers. There were high quality blades being forged in the Iberian peninsula as well, with the Celitibereans, and the quality was certainly greatly enhanced by the influence of the Moors and thier metallurgic technology, as previously noted.

It is interesting anthropologically how cultural and ethnographic groups can move over extended time to distant geographic regions, and as various conditions dictate, sometimes return much later to the same regions they left. In this phenomenon they have obviously changed dramatically and assimilated other cultures and groups into thiers and as they enter the now also very much changed former regions, diffusion convenes once again.
This is basically how my reference to Celtic influence in North Africa was intended, in most subtle degree. My inference was regarding the possible adoption of weapon forms by imitating earlier styles as described from possibly iconographic sources.....again noting the absence of progressive line of development shown archaeologically or from provenanced sources.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Very nicely stated, Jim, I agree. Tough I think the takouba and kaskara are related more to the early islamic swords than other models. About the wootz: I am reading the Al-Kindi treatise "On Swords an their Kinds". He mentions, interestingly, the Yemen as an impotant center of production of swords, using either their own wootz, or an imported one from Sri Lanka. There were documented commercial connections among the Yemen and East Central Africa. I think we can reconstruct, slowly, the commercial network in the Middle Ages and before. Al-Kindi also wrotte about other places were wootz and swords were produced, on India, Iraq, and Bukhara, and some routes of trade for the wootz cakes. Interestigly, not a mention of wootz production on Persia, but forging centers in many places. Seems like Damascus production was alreay on decay on those times (9th Century).

Whenever you want to park here, family and books included, you are very well welcomed.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Gonzalo. You're right, the Islamic broadswords were at the root of broadsword development in the Sudan, and the European styles later served as developing indiginous forms as trade increased. I have not read Al-Kindi, only material cited from him in various references, particularly Elgood. The Yemen was indeed once an important center as you note, but the wootz was imported and it seems quite likely the earlier source was from Sri-Lanka, well visited by Arab trade. Persia did not produce wootz as I understand, but thier advanced forging methods with this excellent steel produced the blades that became nearly legendary.
By the 9th c. I believe Tamarlene had moved most of the smiths to his own Samarkand, and Damascus had become primarily a trade center where these high quality blades diffused far and wide.

All very best regards, and thank you again,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Well, Al-Kindi does mention that the Yemen had wootz production in his time. And he does not mention other places where it was produced in latter times on India, according with the indian sources. So I still can´t find conclusive evidence that Persia did not produced wootz, apart from circunstancial evidence. It seems that there have been some changes in the geographical distribution of wootz production. I suspect that even some places related with this production, were only ports or markets from which wootz was concentrated and traded to other places on the Orient.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Jim, please empty your mail box. I couldn´t send you a message.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice brain storming guys.

Here is a blog from the Pitt Rivers Museum.


The flissa or flyssa is the distinctive weapon of the Kabyle Berber people of Algeria. Since they vary in length they are sometimes classed as swords, sometimes as knives. Unlike many North African swords which are fitted with European blades, the flissa blade is without exception of local manufacture.

Such weapons were used to break open chain mail, which was still worn in this part of the world until the 19th century. The blade is single-edged for cutting but also has a tapering point for stabbing. This typical example has an octagonal grip, animal head pommel and decoratively incised blade.

Sacred Weapons
The unusual concave section along the flissa’s cutting edge has drawn much attention from art historians. Some have argued that this shape shows the particular ancestry of the flissa, which they believe copies the shape of concave-bladed Ancient Greek swords called machaira, such as those used by the armies of Alexander the Great. It doesn’t seem impossible that this form of sword could have been brought to Algeria by the Carthaginians, who were themselves of Phoenician origin. In saying this, it should also be noted that the flissa hilt is similar to that of Arabian-Persian-Indian shamshir swords so it is not beyond doubt that it had it’s origins further east.

As well as the blade shape, the species of animal depicted on the flissa hilts has also created much academic speculation. Some scholars have argued that the species of the animal is unimportant; what is important is that their eyes are always exaggerated in size. Both the animal-headed pommel and the brass-inlaid geometric decoration on the hilt and blade, have magical power. All of the decoration on the sword serves to protect the wielder against the Evil Eye.

The Evil Eye is a major concern for Berber and Islamic North Africans alike. It is believed that the first jealous glance of another person, cast on someone or their possessions, is dangerous to them and will bring them misfortune. Such decoration is applied to many manufactured objects in the region. The general idea behind such decoration is to depict something repulsive, pointed, or an eye or hand, with which one can repel, pierce or deflect the Evil Eye. For example, the individual triangular motifs on the back of this sword’s blade represent clothes pins (fibulae), which are understood to pierce the Evil Eye, while the zigzag line motifs represent a snake, which then drives it away. The glare from one eye is believed to repel that of another so the animal-headed pommel has been cast here with large eyes.

[KuKulzA28]

I don't know too much about the Islamic and African world, though I wish I did. However, on the topic of Celts... they were all over Europe in various forms and sub-cultures... the Celitberian and Celtic-influence Lusitani in Iberia, the Caledonians, Iceni, Casse, Cautevellani, and Goidils in The British Isles and Ireland, the Gallic folk in France, the Belgae around the Rhine area... the countless Alpine tribes (not counting independent cultures like the Rhaetians), the Cisalpine Gauls, the eastern Boii, Scordisci, and Lugii, and the Galatians in Greece, Turkey, and Egypt.

The Celts outside of main Europe were there often due to migration and mercenary service. The Anatolian Galatians in Ankyra conquered a chunk of land and then often lent their services as mercenaries to the Greeks and Pontics. The Egyptian Celts were imported there to be mercenaries, given land and slaves and enticed to settle along the Nile, in return for military service. The Carthaginians used Celts as mercenaries as well... and while their favored troops were Iberians, Numidians, and Libyans... they probably had Celts in Carthage...

So the Celts have spread all over the place, and while I'm not educated enough to speak on the Flyssa authoritatively, I know that the Celtic influence is possible geographically... but time-wise... it is not so clear

[Gonzalo G]

!Wow! !It´s amazing what do so many people belive!

[Emanuel]

Here I come back after a year of hiatus and what do I see, the F word right on cue.

Hi Jim, Gonzalo, all, nice to see the flyssa still racking brains and prodding the imagination. Good discussion!
I've always had the impression that the flyssa pommel looks like a camel head wouldn't be far off in the area.

About the archaeological record, I've been spending a good bit of time reading through every French archaeological review on Algeria, and I found nothing about old Kabyle material culture. What I've seen so far focuses almost exclusively on the Classical period and Roman ruins. Will keep looking in time...

All the best,
Emanuel

[katana]

Hi Emanuel,
welcome back .......that picture....you look different.....have you had a hair cut ?

Kind Regards David

[Emanuel]

Thanks David, it's a killer with the ladies

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Emanuel, and really glad to see you back!!! I thought the UFO's got ya!!

As you can see we are indeed still at it, and pretty sure they'll have crop circles, the pyramids, sasquatch etc. all figured out before we get anywhere near a consensus on the flyssa.

Good point on the camel, and that lovely photo pretty much cinches it, that has got to be what that pommel is.

Welcome back Emanuel!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. David...take your pill!

[Emanuel]

Thanks Jim, It's good to be back on familiar ground . It wasn't the ufos, more like me under a rather large rock.

The thing about the camel and the bulging eye is this...I've read a number of accounts from mid-1800s, both French and English, that describe Berbers as not very superstitious in regards to trinkets, in contrast with Arabs. Amulets and the evil eye were apparently not important, rather people were superstitious about things like the time of day when one departed from home, the direction one took, when an action was made, etc...I'm not sure if I ever quoted one such account here, I will look for the book again and share the relevant bit. This is partly why I'm keen on the camel idea.

Emanuel

[Jens Nordlunde]

This could be an answer to one of the Afghan hiltforms – with all the caravans racing past.

Jens

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Emanuel,
welcome back .......that picture....you look different.....have you had a hair cut ?

Kind Regards David

Hahahaha...and that deep sockets on the eyes...that´s the look of Emanuel when he finshes his sariat on the desert. Well, Emanuel, I feel more sympathy for your explanation than for the idea that, because the hilt suposedly reminds the indian-persian-arab shamshir´s, it is a weapon coming from far east, and at the same time, form the greek machaira. Seems a very very plausible hypothesis. I like it. We can call it "a cameliform hilt".

Gonzalo