My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

While I lack your knowledge of the decorations on hunting weapons, I'm not all that sure that the images are completely talismanic. Basically, they include a sun, a moon, an image that combines the wind and a compass rose (perhaps the winds), and a martial image combining sabers, spears, drums, and a fasces. None of these are occult, certainly. One could propose that the images are insignia for a military group, some noble or other, or even artistic license.

While I agree that serving knives typically don't have sheaths, my Korean girlfriend recently gave me this nice little korean paring knife, complete with its own sheath. She got it for a few bucks at a local oriental grocery store. She was annoyed by the paring knives in my drawer. This is just a counter-example, but it does make the point. We're used to cheese knives coming with cheese boards, but we don't have a context on this knife, except that it was old and well-made.

I'd also note that the sheath on our mystery blade appears to be non-functional, in that it can't be hung by its chain. Unless the chain fittings have slipped forward over the years (a question for CourseEight), I'm having trouble believing that it was a field knife.

Anyway, I'm enjoying procrastinating with this topic. Thank you!

F

[Jim McDougall]

Me too Fearn!
I forgot about the military trophy panoply, which adds to my thoughts on this being a gift to someone of gentry/ military status, and again, since the markings are not necessary on cutlery....and non functional chain, scabbard, decorative hilt and blade tip.....stronger move toward cutlery....recalling hunting weapon motif?

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

The scabbard certainly does not look robust enough for the 'rigours' of hunting. ...but there is the possibility that the scabbard is a later replacement. The peculiar tip is definately a riddle, I have searched veterinary, surgical and hunting knives for a 'similar tip ...and have not found its equal.

There is one possiblity that the tip is a 'hoof hook' ...a tool used to remove stones.....from hooves . Since horses were often used during the hunt...a temporary 'lame' horse (with a stone embedded in a hoof) would be a problem ...and would have to be 'walked' back to the stable.

The blade is quite substantial.... I am wondering whether this was re-hilted and re-sheathed...possibly at the same time.

A very strange beast indeed.

Regards David

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

Another thing I just realized is that there's a reason to put a serving knife in a sheath, and that is if you're going to be serving outside, at a picnic or such. Then I thought of the kind of "picnic" that would use such a thing, and that boggled my mind. I tend to lean towards your idea of being some sort of presentation piece, but then we're stuck with the question of why it got sharpened.

Hi Katana,

As for the "hoof pick," well it could be, but looking at a couple pages of google pictures, and I'm not convinced. Basically, the point doesn't stick out far enough, and it's at the end of a sharp blade, which means that levering a pebble out would be difficult (unless you hold it by the sharp edge). I think it works better as a gut hook, although I really think that this tip wasn't designed to take much strain in any direction.

I know! It was specifically designed to fool collectors!

F

[CourseEight]

Hi all!

Sorry for my delay in replying; in my absense things certainly have gone somewhere! The middle fitting on the scabbard is no longer fixed, and does slide up and down the sheath. There is a solder mark at the location in the pictures, but this could have been done much later. If any position of the lower chain attachment makes sense, it could go there.


The blade simply does not strike me as a serving piece. I'm totally with Jim on the markings, and given the period of the piece it makes sense that they would be used as was normal in that period, rather as we may see them now.

I would, however, certainly entertain the idea that this blade was re-hilted and/or re-scabbarded. The main problem with the chain is that given the weight of the handle I can't figure out a way to get it to hang right if suspended only by the chain, no matter the location of the fixed points. Maybe I'm just not sure how such a piece would actually be worn, so I can't judge. So I guess the problem may not be the chain, but the handle? Which could have surely been "upgraded" in the movement of the 1850s that Tim's article describes.

I'm enjoying the debate very much! Thanks!

--Radleigh

[bjeweled]

I was wondering with the spear, sword, axe and drum encompassed by the flag and banners...is it posssible that it is some sort of ceremonial representation...you know...kinda like what we do on the 4th of July?

As far as the tip of the blade...looks like it would open a capped bottle...say maybe, a beer bottle? Let's you know how my mind works...

[fearn]

Hi CourseEight,

Thanks for the information on the scabbard. I guess the question is that if you think it's been remanufactured, what is your sense of the relative age of the pieces? I won't disagree that it could have been rebuilt, but we're then left with a question of what the original pieces were, and what the current piece was supposed to do, other than be a work of art.

Hi bjeweled,

I was certainly thinking of US coins when I looked at that assemblage of designs, but reading the Wikipedia article on the fasces, the image also turned up in France from 1610-1815 in architecture, often associated with other Roman imagery (like Bacchus?). I haven't gone looking for historical fasces in Germany (I dislike wading through Nazi references), but perhaps the knife is from France?

As for the bottlecap, Wikipedia also kicked up a reference for that, and the first patent for a bottlecap was 1892. I think most of us think the knife is older than that, so it's probably not a purpose-designed bottle opener. I've got to admit, I'd thought of that too. It doesn't look like quite the right shape to pull a cork either.

Hmmm. Maybe it's a crochet hook?

F

[katana]

Hi
I did have another idea....but thought it would make the knife younger than everyone seems to think. However, I've learnt that my 'new' suggestion would still place this in the 19th C .

What if the 'end' of the knife is a 'can opener', the French produced canned food for the military .....but the 'can opener' was not 'invented until some 30 years later !!!! Often bayonets were used to open them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannery

and from another source....
".....by 1810 Englishman Peter Durance had taken the process a step further and sealed food in tin-plated, wrought iron containers. The soldiers who won the Battle of Waterloo five years later were nourished with the first tin cans.

But they were very thick and almost impossible to open without a hammer and chisel. Soldiers used knives, bayonets or even rocks, sometimes suffering serious injuries.

It wasn't until 1858 that the can opener was invented and having a plate of veg no longer meant risking chopping your leg off......"




Knife....military...19thC.....French ? British ?.....campaign knife.....can opener

Mystery solved

Regards David

.

[Gavin Nugent]

I found this painting tonight, Decapition of the saint Katharina, Bernaert Van Orley (1488–1541).
Although this piece is not as old as the picture, have a look at the guy in the bottom right corner of the painting and tell me if you think it is the same style of side arm? The hilt looks the same length and shape and the curve and fittings are the same too...maybe origins of this artist might point more to orgins of this knife?

Gav

PS, this shows how it was mounted too

[Jim McDougall]

Incredible find Gav!!! You definitely have a fantastic eye!
The weapon worn by that figure does seem to have size and curvature similar, though the hilt of course is gold metal but of different profile.

I finally discovered more on the background of this painting, which is a Flemish religiously themed subject based on the martyrdom of St. Catherine.
This refers to St. Catherine of Alexandria, who in the 4th century was condemned by Roman Emperor Maxentius to death by use of the 'breaking wheel' (note the wheels in the background). It was said that when she touched the wheel it broke, so she was beheaded. There seem to be many variations of this legend, and revived interest in her martyrdom began in the 15th century when it was said that she had spoken to Joan of Arc.

The costumes and of course weapons in this painting clearly display the use of artistic license so typical in these times with these subjects, portraying the figures in fashions of the time the painting was done (Van Orley was Flemish , b.1488-d. 1541) . It would appear that the weapons shown, including the unusually wide and short weapon worn by the figure, may correspond to weapons from the late 15th to early 16th century, despite the 4th century event being depicted.

The weapon we are discussing in this thread, obviously not of this age, may well be a neoclassic representation of an earlier form hunting weapon, and the talismanic and military markings reflecting 18th century popularity of these styles.

Now to look for these curious hunting weapon forms from Europe from end of 15th century forward.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Radleigh ... and other gentle forumites
Can we say this is familiar ... the tip hook, i mean ?
Fernando

.

[CourseEight]

Wow, once again sorry for the delay in my response, but so happy to those who have continued to help. Great painting, Gav, and a fascinating knife you've found, Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc.

Another interesting knife with some similarities, clearly Indian, just ended on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290287591758

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

...Fernando! What is it, and where is it from? The second lobe of the "heart" shape is more pronounced on mine, of course, but I'm curious as to the function of the one you've found, whether the inside is sharp, etc. ...

I am sorry i didn't keep in mind all details, as i just focused on the blade tip, remembering the discussion had in this thread. Besides i was busy apreciating hundreds of pieces, having to select a couple for acquisition, so i just concentrated in asking the guy what the purpose of the blade tip was, besides some side questions. I remember he told me this was a multi purpose knife, i think Indian (not sure i remember or if he knew for sure), and the purpose of the tip hook was to extract tendons (sinew). I guess he was inferring this from his ( imense) experience but had no solid evidence ... just a feeling.
Otherwise it is a very nice piece, with an engraved silver handle, its pommel in an unusual drop shape. I just didn't buy it because it was not a weapon.
Sorry if this doesn't add much to the riddle of your own piece; was more to through more wood on the fire.
Fernando

[CourseEight]

Thanks a lot, Fernando, for the interest and the information! Surely any and all information is better to have than not!

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This 'mystery knife' has always been in the back of my mind when reading books, the net etc. I was reading 'Medieval finds from excavations in London, Knives and Scabbards' when I came across some information that may be relevant. In large houses/manors etc., there was an important servant called the 'Panter' the person in charge of the Pantry i.e. the food for the household. In times before canning/fridges the logistics of this position was such that it was an extremely responsible post if not the most important in the household. A ceremonial of the Panter was to cut the Lord/Masters bread of which the top piece was given to the Lord/Master hence the expression "the upper crust'. To carry out this service of sectioning the bread the Panter used four knives the Chaffer, the Parer, the Mensal and the Trencher. To my mind this knife looks like 'the Chaffer'. It is not an enormous leap of imagination to expect that an important implement of an important person in later years, when the intended use is no longer applicable, should be used as a 'Badge of Office' rather than a tool. There are, as you know, many examples of items used historically as weapons/tools but now only used in ceremonial. I am of the opinion that this knife lies somewhere in the 18th Cent, is European and is the 'Badge of Office' of an important servant/employee of a 'grand/aristocratic household' but not necessarily limited to the 'Keeper of the Pantry' but possibly someone with a wider responsibility e.g. Head Servant etc. This is purely speculation but as an idea I think it is reasonably valid.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I will add a photo tomorrow of a Medieval drawing from a manuscript at the Bodleian showing these knives.

[CourseEight]

Thanks so much for your continued efforts Norman! Your line of reasoning certainly does seem sensible, and in line with motifs of the handle to be sure. I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of the 'Chaffer'!

Cheers,

--Radleigh

[fearn]

Makes sense, although I'd like to see the pics. Great research.

F

[Jim McDougall]

Now THATS esoteric!!! Beautifully done Norman and great follow through. I always hate it when a thread ends with things unresolved, and its great when someone finds 'new evidence' down the road.
Thank you so much.

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Radleigh,
Apologies, I'm a wee bit later than I anticipated with further info.
The attached photo is from a manuscript, Douce 374 f17, in the Bodleian Library in Oxford and dates from the 15th Century. The three knifes shown are the Chaffer, Parer and Trencher. The Chaffer was used for large loaves, the Trencher for smoothing edges and the Mensal knife for removing the select 'upper crust' for presentation to the lord. The other photo is of a Panter slicing bread c1250, there is no comment on which particular knife is being used unfortunately. Although none of the knives are exactly like yours the familial similarity is, I think, worth a thought with regard to my conclusions. As you know knives, like everything else, change through time and fashion and I think it is not too big a leap of faith to see the fundamental similarities between your knife and these Medieval utensils. If I had to stick my neck out and state exactly what I think your knife 'may' represent I would say that it is a 'badge of office' dating from the latter years of the 18th Century, is possibly French and is on balance probably Military. The whole look of the piece has that 'romantic', 'mythological' and 'empire' feel that says to me Napoleonic. The blade decoration,to me, shouts military and as with Band Swords, Officers Dirks etc., it is decorative and states that the wearer is of a certain rank/position within a structured organisation but is non-functional. I think it may have something to do with a non-combatant but important position within an army e.g. Supply Officer, Head Cook/Chef, Officer in charge of Provisions etc. Of course all of the aforementioned may be complete ******** but I can't think of anything else that fits the bill. If nothing else I hope you find the info interesting.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Another illustration.
Regards,
Norman.