My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[Jim McDougall]

More excellent observations Fernando, and I had thought also of the possibility of a serving knife, to which this does have some resemblance in degree. I also thought of the notes on either surgical instrument or veterinarian tool, and tried to think of possible comparisons. On fishing knives, there is a very nasty looking hooked type profile in the blade tip on
the back, which is colorfully termed the 'guthook'.

Despite these possibilities, the one feature that suggests the hunting association is that these blade markings with magical/talismanic and military style occur only on either hunting or military weapons. As far as I know, no medical, veterinary or surgical instruments carry such markings on the blades, nor of course do items of cutlery or serving implements.

Also, I am not aware of such instruments or serving cutlery typically mounted in scabbards.
The chain seems a decorative element, much as seen on ceremonial and parade swords in certain cases, and suggests possibly presentation, or diplomatic gift type item, as does the elaborate motif of the piece.

I like your thinking Fernando!! and like you, humbly present my thoughts. The more all of us bounce this around, the closer we get to an answer.
I wish I could remember where I saw a blade tip something like this..I think it was the falchion or something like it in Stone.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Per my earlier assessment, I agree with Jim and stick with my gut feeling that this is a hunting implement based on the markings and styling. As far as a "cheese knife" or fruit cutter, I would again point out the fullers/blood grooves on this piece (although some fruit can be quite juicy, I suppose!
The curious point could be decorative, but it seems to make total sense that it could be used to eviscerate game and gut fish as Jim pointed out. Going back to the talismanic symbolism, I always find it fascinating that even in european society, the properties of the "hunt" and magic to call up luck at finding the game combine nicely with these talismanic pieces.

[VANDOO]

PERSONALLY I USE THE TIP OF SUCH A KNIFE TO REMOVE THE JEWEL FROM THE NAVELS OF DANCING GIRLS WHO DO NOT PLEASE ME.
JUST KIDDING A VERY INTERESTING ITEM CONGRADULATIONS.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

PERSONALLY I USE THE TIP OF SUCH A KNIFE TO REMOVE THE JEWEL FROM THE NAVELS OF DANCING GIRLS WHO DO NOT PLEASE ME.
JUST KIDDING A VERY INTERESTING ITEM CONGRADULATIONS.

LOL!!!

Excellent! You should start a thread with that picture Vandoo!
'Meet the Forumites'

[Rick]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The curious point could be decorative, but it seems to make total sense that it could be used to eviscerate game and gut fish as Jim pointed out.

That would seem sensible but a gut hook needs to be very sharp and the inside of the tip does not seem to me to be sharpened for the task; also the extreme curve would seem to make gutting prey very awkward .

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...6_2007_1292659

That chain appears purely decorative as the links do not appear to be welded or soldered for strengththening purposes .

I'm kind of leaning towards Fernando's point of view .

[fearn]

Hi Rick,

That's why I called it a fruit knife back there. Anyway, there's a way to settle the "gut hook" issue. Try to use it, preferably on something soft and harmless like a piece of paper or a paper towel. Of course, most of us have bought knives that can't perform their putative functions, but if it really can't cut, that might tell us something.

The first thing that tip reminded me of was one of those faux forks on the tip of a cheese knife, and that, combined with the goat head and grapes up top made me think of a party piece.

A couple more observations. One question: is the bound figure a man or a woman? The figure below is definitely male, and while I agree that he doesn't have goat hooves, the satyrs that accompanied Dionysus didn't necessarily have hooves either (Wikipedia Dionysus and satyr picture link; Wikipedia Satyr article ). Alternatively, it could be a bound woman with a man between her legs.

I still lean towards the bound figure being Dionysus or Bacchus. Man or woman, the symbolism on the handle is more consistent with partying than with hunting, in my opinion.

The second observation is the piece may have lasted, simply because it didn't get used very often. That would argue either that it was a presentation piece (thanks Fernando!), a party piece, or a hunting knife that was poorly designed, and hence didn't get used often.

This is a great discussion. Thanks gentlemen!

F

[Rick]

Fearn,
One could imagine a bit of cheese impaled on its tip .

[Jim McDougall]

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and well so as this is truly a fascinating piece. While I think we all pretty much agree on its approximate date or period, the question remains whether it was intended for the hunt, or was it a fancy piece of cutlery for serving at lavish events.

I feel that the elaborately profiled point is aesthetically intended, though my mention of the fishing knife feature was to illustrate that deliberate features similar did exist on other sporting edged weapons.

As far as the scabbard, I did find a single example of serving knife, nowhere this elaborate, which did have a scabbard, but for the most part it does not seem these were with serving cutlery.
Also, concerning the talismanic magical markings, Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons" op.cit. p.41) notes, concerning these magical markings on blades, that "...it had to possess some mystical quality to spur him on to greater deeds or to bring him luck. On many hunting sword blades therefore, magical signs or numbers are engraved for this purpose".
It is discussed that these astrological or 'magical' signs appear to have evolved from the calendar or zodiacal inscriptions on hunting blades that were relied on to insure good fortune and protection in the often dangerous hunts. Eventually, the gentry, often also serving as officers in military regiments, began to adopt these symbols in similar context on thier sword blades.

With this feature on this blade, it is difficult to imagine why such talismanic protection would be required on a serving knife or cutlery, unless it was simply to reflect that seen on hunting weapons as a gift for an especially enthusiastic hunter. If this was a presentation or gift, as somewhat being considered given the decorative chain and scabbard, this might be the explanation.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

While I lack your knowledge of the decorations on hunting weapons, I'm not all that sure that the images are completely talismanic. Basically, they include a sun, a moon, an image that combines the wind and a compass rose (perhaps the winds), and a martial image combining sabers, spears, drums, and a fasces. None of these are occult, certainly. One could propose that the images are insignia for a military group, some noble or other, or even artistic license.

While I agree that serving knives typically don't have sheaths, my Korean girlfriend recently gave me this nice little korean paring knife, complete with its own sheath. She got it for a few bucks at a local oriental grocery store. She was annoyed by the paring knives in my drawer. This is just a counter-example, but it does make the point. We're used to cheese knives coming with cheese boards, but we don't have a context on this knife, except that it was old and well-made.

I'd also note that the sheath on our mystery blade appears to be non-functional, in that it can't be hung by its chain. Unless the chain fittings have slipped forward over the years (a question for CourseEight), I'm having trouble believing that it was a field knife.

Anyway, I'm enjoying procrastinating with this topic. Thank you!

F

[bjeweled]

I was wondering with the spear, sword, axe and drum encompassed by the flag and banners...is it posssible that it is some sort of ceremonial representation...you know...kinda like what we do on the 4th of July?

As far as the tip of the blade...looks like it would open a capped bottle...say maybe, a beer bottle? Let's you know how my mind works...

[fernando]

Hi Radleigh ... and other gentle forumites
Can we say this is familiar ... the tip hook, i mean ?
Fernando

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