Re-hilted Bayonet?

[Gonzalo G]

The changing meaning of the word "gaucho" is irrelevant. As I told you. those knives were not privative from the gaucho, but used by cattle or livestock workers, namely cowboys or sheperds, and NOT agricultural labourers. I´m talking about men on horses, who uses the facón to perform many activities related to the cattle, the horse and he´s own defense. If you keep linking the facón exclusively to the gaucho or the landowner, you are going to be trapped in concepts and will never understand the real use of this knives.

The size of the facón was linked also to the size of the bayonets available to make them. You know, this was not like choosing in a supermarket many available sizes to pick up the most desirable or apt, but to get any blade within their reach to make a facón, and to the II WW, almost all bayonets had big blades. You have to understand the historical context of the craft, the difficulties in getting steel blades of certain characteristics and the poverty of that people. I´m not talking of the rich silver mounted facones of the estancieros or hacendados, the big landowners, but of the working tools used by the ranch workers.

Yes, I know argentineans also idealized the gaucho, but one thing is the argentinean idealizaion of the gaucho, and another the foreign myth of the gaucho. The last one is more far from reality. Because at least, the argentineans knows that those knives were not privative form the gaucho. And, another thing: the caronero was not a gaucho knive. It was an outlaw knive, made to kill men. Not only some gauchos were outlaws. Many non gaucho men were outlaws, until the end of the 19th Century. Just in the same way many american oulaws on the west were not really cowboys.

I´m sorry to say this, but your spanish seems to be not good enough. On the page 11, Domenech mentions explicitly that the weapon used to cut the leg rear tendoms of the cattle is NOT the facón, but a kind of SPEAR with a half moon blade, and LATTER, when the animal was already on the ground, the gaucho, which is making temporarily the job of a cowboy, dismounted and finished off the animal with the facón. And it does not mention the need of a special size of blade to do the job. If this is the source of your theory to explain the lenght of the facones, I am afraid you are wrong. I point the fact that the northeast argentinean cattle or livestock estancias, on which cowboys are actually employed, still have some of this practices. I´m sorry that you couldn´t see it during your voyage. I suppose that if I go to Australia and I don´t see free greater bilbies or the leadbeaters in the countryside, this is not proof that this animals do not exist.

The facón was usefull in the time of Rosas, and Rosas did not disdain it. What Rosas was worried about, is for the continuos fighting of the cowboys with the use of the facones. The landowners were only worried about the preservation of their labour force, and Rosas, which was also a landowner, was also worried about the keeping of his "public order", as a good dictator. In some actual countries, as mine, alcoholic breverages are forbidden on sunday. They prefer to see the people on the church. And this is not because our politicians have a very high standard of morality (I almost laughed), but because they are colaborating with the business man who wants all his workers labouring on monday, and not absent and drunk. And also, in the same movement, the politicians have the gratitude of the catolic church, wich is a political force to be taken on account...do you see? All comes to economic interest and political power.

Other uses for the facón, apart from butchering, hunting wild beasts (finishing off wounded prey) and fighting still today? They make many things, from arranging the hoof and mane of the horses, cutting wire, making small wood for the fire, eating (yes, they use the facón to eat), cutting strips of leather to weave and so on. But as you said, gardually the big bladed criollo knive is completely displacing the facón, because is more confortable to carry and use. By the way, the puñal criollo is NOT a glorified butchers knife, but a knife rooted in a genealogy which goes to the mediterranean knife. Yes, also a butcher knife, as the bowie itself, but more a multipurpose knife. I find more butcher-lile the bayonet, which is made for the sole purpose to kill, and in the cattle-orientated north of Mexico, we use a knife similar to a bayonet to kill domestic animals, not as the criollo, but long, slender and with parallel edges. But you have to know about slaughtering to understand this uses.

Sorry, I don´t understand what do you mean with "HEMA movement", and I don´t know form what source do you speak of "revival" or about "mainly silver mounted knives on the period of 1940 - 1960", and other many statements you have made in so absolute manner.

If you define in english the "spanish navaja" for it´s size, I´m sorry, but this definition is not valid in the SPANISH speaking world. The spanish navaja is not only a folding knife, but have other unmistakable stylistic and constructive features, very differentiated form other navajas from all over the world.

Saddle in english, as on spanish, means the same thing. We call it "silla de montar" (mounting chair). The military and equestrian is an "albardón", and not a silla de montar (saddle). The saddle has also a very differentiated constructive features, completely alien to the recado. It consists on a rigid structures made of wood or hardened raw skins lined or covered usually with leather and integrated stirrups made with metal or wood, and sometimes also covered with leather. The recado consists of layers of blankets and a soft raw skin of an animal used just to cover, and cordage. Is more like a nomadic item. Not rigid parts, no horn, not an integrated stirrups and the lasso or lariat is not atached to a horn to pull or stop the cattle, but to the cordage. This is the reason we have a word for the saddle, another for the albardón, and another word for the recado. A matter of precision in the use of the words. I don´t know if you have an equivalent in english, but sadly, I don´t know it. How do you call the english style jumping and racing horse "saddle"?

The caronero is used only in festivities with the traditional dress, but only by a few people. When an item is outdated? Do you call the cowboy dress (boots, shirts, pants, hats and so on) outdated "replicas"? Or they are part of a living tradition? You know, the texan hats and boots, the texan saddle, the cowboy pants Levi´s style, the wide belts with special buckles...

I invited you to see for youself the facones from all ages on that forum, but if you want examples, please give us examples which, in your own words, "fit in at all with the trends of the time span". Because I belive that your knowledge of the facones is reduced to the silver mounted examples used by the rich people to make ostentation, and those are only a part of the production. You can´t fit this example because it is different. You talk about water buffalo horn from India an link me to a discussion in which I also find remarkable statements in this way. I´m not surprised the other facon also was not understood, and you, without no historical proof, said that it´s parts could not be made in Mexico, as if an advanced technology without our reach was required to. I´m not going to discuss the other knife, but I´m going to show you, for your knowledge, that this horn is NOT from water buffalo, but a common cow horn form Argentina, commonly known as black "guampa" or "asta". I expect this help you to understand this handles on the common working facones. Please see this photo, of a puñal criollo made with cow´s horn from Argentina:



Nice, isn´t it? I think it does not fit on your idea of the cow´s horn appearance. Maybe because you don´t have a direct knowledge of this materials. And there is more:



This is all the mistery of the "water buffalo" horns on the argentinean working facones. The metal crafting is an easy business in Argentina, or in Mexico. You should see the silverware from Taxco and Guanajuato in Mexico. The best repousee and filigree silverwork is exported to USA and Europe, though we don´t make knife mountings, but pistol slabs and machete handles. And also some adornments for the assault rifles, though I think this is distastefull.