24th October 2008, 01:31 AM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
Moro Kris: what did I buy?
Never been into Moro weapons, but this one caught my eye for some reasons: looked old to me.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2912wt_909 Can you look at it and either pat me on the back or recommend a suitable place for it on my Wall of Shame? After all, in this day and age of trillion dollar rescue plans , $86 doesn't look very painful.... |
24th October 2008, 01:48 AM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 327
|
Doubt it's Moro, looks like a Malay Sundang.
Try removing the hilt & let's look at the tang. It's on backwards, anyway. Well worth the money, for the chance it's a oldie. |
24th October 2008, 01:57 AM | #3 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Ariel,
That's an interesting piece - good grab! Of course, the hilt is upside down and I guess this is a later replacement which doesn't seem to be from the southern Philippines. I'm not sure that the blade is Moro either - the base features would be exceptionally simple for a Moro kris. If I had to guess, I'd be tempted to consider a Lumad origin. Please polish and etch the blade when you receive it and posts pics - that may help to get a better perspective on this piece! Regards, Kai |
24th October 2008, 02:54 AM | #4 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Lumad, maybe. I'm more in the Indonesian camp at present. Not really Moro for sure.
|
24th October 2008, 03:06 AM | #5 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,857
|
Agreed with Battara...nothing about this says Moro. Looks like a reworked Indonesian blade to me, but I do think it's interesting that the hilt seems to show a nice patina, meaning somebody must have used it for something.
|
24th October 2008, 04:13 AM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 327
|
Be interesting to see if any of the Borneo people may want to comment.
Small village work or from a group that normally didn't do detailed file work on their blades. |
24th October 2008, 08:26 AM | #7 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,330
|
Quote:
They were in general not to be found in the deep forests at the dajaks. Krisses in ,Moro, style were found most of all in North Borneo (Sabah). Because philippines travellers (and, or pirates) settled overthere or traded there with the dajaks. I read about some dajaks in the hart of Borneo wearing a keris. But they were in contact with malays and obtained it by trade or by gift, or as payment for some decent or less decent work they did for a malay person. That is what I know about kerisses, krisses in Borneo. However I can,t tell anything about the kris in this thread. I think there will be others who will. Maurice |
|
10th November 2008, 02:26 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
OK, guys, I need to be enlightened: why is it Lumad and not old Moro or a transitional stage between the Indonesian and Philippine styles? I got it but had to go to a resort in the Dominican Republic for a week ( feel sorry for me, please: sun, sea, grilled fish, mangoes, sangria galore, gorgeous blondes getting even tan all over their flawless torsos....), so I did not have time to polish it.
However: the blade is heavier and more massive than Indonesian krisses, the gangya is separate, the dividing line is straight with just a hint of a "knee", the fretwork is rudimentary. To me it looks just like the Fig 161 in the " History of steel" ( written by some of our esteemed colleagues). The handle is mounted in a wrong fashion, but I could not take it of: rock solid connection. It is old, the bone is heavily and deeply patinated. Please educate me. |
10th November 2008, 05:19 PM | #9 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Well Ariel, i can't tell you why it might be Lumad, or even that it is, but i will go out on a short limb here and say that it ain't Moro. The features just aren't right, even for early Moro. And if that hilt is original the motifs are all wrong for Moro. As for a missing link piece, i doubt this kris is old enough for that and given the form of what we know as "archaic" early form kris you would think that a transition piece would carry more of the Indo features that the early kris had such as a well defined sogokan.
|
11th November 2008, 04:10 AM | #10 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
|
Thanks for the reply, but I want to learn more.
The handle is a replacement, no doubt, so it is not an evidence. I always thought that the gangya/blade joint was the most important indicator of the age. The really old ones ( 18th cen) had almost straight line, relatively old ones ( late 19th to mid 20th) were noticeably angled, and new models had a one-piece construction ( with or without a scratched imitation of the joint). I also remember a discussion here that the very old ones might have had a one-piece construction, too. Based on that, mine must be old, if it is a Moro. Does the same rule apply to non-Moro swords? Are there any other good indicators of age? Could you spell for me what exact features would differentiate a large/heavy Indonesian kris from a light and shortish Moro one? I cannot see the tang and even x-ray is not going to help here. I do not wish to break the handle. Don't get me wrong: I am not disputing your conclusion, I just want to learn. |
11th November 2008, 04:55 AM | #11 | |||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
For me what really speaks to this not being Moro is the manner in which the sekar kacang or "elephant trunk" is formed. The whole gandik area of this sword just does not have the care and detail that i expect to see in a Moro sword, even one of lesser quality. All i can suggest to you Ariel is that you look at a whole lot of photos of kris identified as Moro and then look at this one. The cross-section looks wrong as well, though that might just be the photos. But it reminds me of the way some Bugis keris are formed with a high middle section that falls away quickly at the edges. This might be of Indonesian origin or it might be Lumad or some other group trying to copy a Moro style kris, but IMHO it is not Moro. You should take some detailed photos of your own to give us a better look. Last edited by David; 11th November 2008 at 05:09 AM. |
|||
11th November 2008, 07:47 AM | #12 | |||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello David,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
|||
11th November 2008, 08:22 AM | #13 | |||||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
|
Hello Ariel,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
|||||
11th November 2008, 04:12 PM | #14 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
|
Something else that I have found that sometimes works well to remove grips that are fixed with pitch is extreme cold. You might try putting this in your deep freeze (if you have one) overnight and see if the grip comes loose. Hope this helps.
Robert |
11th November 2008, 04:20 PM | #15 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
|
I use a hair dryer aim it at base of the blade it may take a while but it worked for me. I am posting the pics so we don't loose them.
Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 11th November 2008 at 06:37 PM. |
11th November 2008, 06:21 PM | #16 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
|
A couple of observations , I think this blade is really old (the pitting); it also looks like it hasn't seen very much if any warangan .
It looks also as if it were made by a smith of average talent; the village smith perhaps ? Things to think about ..... |
|
|