Ritual killing of swords in burials

Jim McDougall · 28th September 2008, 08:06 AM

A recent post showed an apparantly ancient sword, suggested Celtic, that was bent back into a circle, and supposed to be a sword which was ritually killed by being bent, to accompany the dead warrior into the next world.

I am curious about whether this practice was exclusively Celtic, and whether it was consistantly practiced, or only occasionally. Also, there seems to be different views on whether these swords could have been bent backwards easily, especially without breaking them. Some sources suggest they were bent into almost an S shape, some say shaped like a strigil ( simple hook type shape), while others claim the blades were too brittle to be bent.

There are suggestions also that the Celtic sword blades were not as pliable as claimed by Polybius c.225 BC when he wrote that the Celts blades bent after the first blow, and had to be bent back into shape under the foot of the warrior. The suggestion was that the blade would have to be reheated to be bent back, and the Romans, finding doubled blades in Celt graves began the tale of the faulty blades.

I'd appreciate thoughts, examples, opinions. Just curious.

All best regards,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 28th September 2008, 03:31 PM

Good morning Jim.

I just found this new forum a few days ago, and it is a Very interesting place!

It appears that the "killing" of a weapon was not exclusively Celtic. Anglo-Saxon and Viking age weapons have been found, heated and bent double, or twisted beyond repair, or on occasion broken into pieces and scattered through the grave.
I suppose this practice had a practical purpose as well as spiritual;
As we know,
If the weapon was rendered useless, it could Still accompany the (useless!) corpse of it's owner to the "next world" where both, it would be presumed, would be restored.,........And the practical side was that the useless weapon wouldn't attract grave robbers, (which if not the Oldest profession, appears to be One of the oldest!)
Based on this practicality, I would think the "killing" of the weapon would be quite widely practiced, until Christianity took hold.
Another reason for "killing" seems to be to make a complete sacrifice of the object, a kind of "Votive offering"

On the other hand;

In the Icelandic sagas, a few famous swords were taken from earlier burial mounds, Skofnung is probably the most famous, and had probably been lain with King Hrolf Kraki for 300 years when it was recovered by Skeggi of Midfirth.
(see "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England p. 11, 172 -74)
This goes to show that the practice of killing blades, etc was not always undertaken. and Might be regarded as personal, or based on wether one could afford a pretty "thief proof' burial chamber or not!

The sword you mentioned from the recent thread, (bent in a circle ) seems a bit unusual, and has me puzzled. It looks like it would have been a prime candidate to straighten out and re-temper..... not the usual bent flat killing.
The blade looks in very good condition. I don't understant this one....

All the best, Jim.

Richard.

Jim McDougall · 28th September 2008, 07:20 PM

Hi Richard,
Its great to see you joining us here!
Thank you for the outstanding explanation on this unusual practice, and the observations on the other example mentioned. I really appreciate your well written attention to detail on this, particularly observations on why this was not a standard practice.

It seems also I had seen a suggestion that in times of war, this custom might have been circumvented as all weapons would be required. Also, warriors of rank typically had several swords, so perhaps alternate ones were 'sacrificed'. One reference noted examples that were not completely finished, as if deliberately produced for the occasion, such as being unsharpened and so on.

All very best regards,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 29th September 2008, 04:46 AM

Jim,

I too have heard on occasion of a semi-finished sword being placed in the grave, and on one occasion, of a sword that was obviously old and worn out, with the blade mended in the middle with another piece of iron riveted along one side as a joiner.
(let's hope the dead fellow didn't have much opposition when he got where he was going!.......not with a sword like that!)

I have had a lively debate elswhere, re. Anglo-Saxon swords. It was presented as a case, that because there have been less found in graves in the north and west of England, this means they weren't there.
I would counter this by saying that since the north and west were "frontier territory" (Britons (Welch) in west, Picts in North and Irish raiders both places,) I would submit that swords would not often be buried with the dead, as they were needed by the living.

(this is just a long-winded way of saying I agree with you re. the reasons for not killing/burying a sword!)

I gather from Hilda E Davidson's "Sword in Anglo-Saxon England", that in this Anglo-Saxon period, that while some swords were definitely "sacrificed," most swords were buried with the utmost care, protected in its scabbard, and often wrapped in cloth for further protection, or on occasion even in what appears to have been a wooden box, judging by a row of iron nails in the grave, over the sword.
Of course, by the time of the Viking raids, England was nominally Christian, and burials with grave-goods was fast on its way out.
In Nordic lands,(nominally pagan) the killing of weapons appears to have continued quite a while longer, but was by no means the only practice.

All the best,

R.

Bill M · 19th October 2008, 10:53 AM

In several Pre-Columbian cultures, both in Mexico and South America, It was a common practice to "kill" a shaman's personal artifacts to allow the imprisoned spirits to be freed to either accompany the shaman in his continuing journey (after death) or to just allow the spirits their freedom.

A third possibility exists in that they wanted to be sure that someone else was not able to appropriate the "power objects" for his own use.

Since a great many of these objects were ceramic, they were just broken and the pieces interred with the dead. It seems that these pieces were intentionally as other completely intact ceramics were found in the same grave site.

Paul Macdonald · 20th October 2008, 12:15 PM

A good thread topic!

I believe that the practice of bending or killing a warriors sword for the grave symbolises the death of their own physical form and spirit.

In pre-Christian beliefs, and following into Christianity, the sword is the spirit. Of the realms or Worlds in which we exist and interplay, there are two, the physical and metaphysical, thus providing us with a physical and non-physical spirit.

When ones physical body and spirit died, this was a way to symbolise that to all, that literally, their sword had died.

Pukka Bundook · 21st October 2008, 04:59 PM

Hello Paul,

You mention two "spirits" (physical and non-physical)

I have not heard of a "physical spirit" before.
I always thought that in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon cultures, wether pre-Christian or Christian, that we were comprised of three elements, body, mind (reasoning) and spirit, and that the spirit lives on, in another world.
...wether this other world is the hall of Valhalla, or Heaven or Hell (seperation) is beyond this subject, but in all cases the spirit is quite clearly defined as living on.

Can you elaborate on where the idea of two spirits comes from?, as I don't seem to see it in old Norse or A-Saxon or Celtic belief, and might be missing something!

Thanks Paul,

Richard.

Bill M · 21st October 2008, 08:26 PM

Richard,

There are several societies where there are two spirits. In the ancient Hawaiian, they believed there was a "low self" spirit that was connected to us on the physical plane and a "high self" spirit that was far above us on a metaphysical plane and could only be reached through the "low self spirit."

Some shamanic-animistic beliefs centered around two spirits also. One spirit (the physical) is your basic persona, the part you might recognize as "you," the composite of your memories and experiences since your birth.

The spirit that recognizes only you, beginning with your birth. This spirit can end at your "death."

The non-physical spirit is more like an "essence." This goes on, perhaps remembering the "physical spirit selves," like chapters in a book. But this "essence" or non-physical spirit endures forever.

Maya Deren in her excellent, fascinating and highly recommended book, "The Divine Horsemen, The Living Gods of Haiti," makes reference to this continuing essence, but makes it more a part of the overall tribal or totemic spirit that she calls a Loa.

http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Horseme.../dp/0914232630

Paul Macdonald · 22nd October 2008, 02:55 AM

These are very interesting references Bill, thanks.

Ones that I was previously unaware of, but tie in perfectly with previous experience.

My reasoning for the physical spirit is based on the natural law of proportionate physical/metaphysical symmetry - As Above, so Below.

Given that there is a physical body and mind, a physical spirit would naturally complement our trio of elements that comprise our working whole. Likewise there can co-exist within our system a metaphysical mind, body and spirit.

Thus, when the physical body and mind dies, we might also want our physical spirit to pass on with us instead of hanging around here for longer than necessary. One way to symbolise that was to break or cast away what was the ultimate symbol of our personal spirit on Earth (the sword).

The physical spirit takes on the very form of our own physical bodies and are often recognised as ghosts.

Interestingly enough, I found myself posting on another blades forum tonight about ghosts

Sleep tight!

Pukka Bundook · 23rd October 2008, 03:10 PM

Hi Bill and Paul.

Thank you for the replies.
The information you supplied is very interesting.
From what I gather though, these two-spirit beliefs are from a different part of the world, and I have not run accross any such beliefs in European history.
(but might be wrong!)

As Jim's original post was about Celtic and later European sword "killings",
It is only European beliefs we need address here as pertinent to the subject.

To me, it is apparent through grave goods, that the deceased in pre-Christian times, were generally expected to make the trip to the "other world" and outfitted for the journey with food and drink to "keep him going" along the way, and quite often weapons to safeguard him as well.

Even now, in what is nominally a Christian age, we still have vestages of these same beliefs, and often bury loved ones with some token of our affection and respect.
It is with such beliefs in mind, that we should probably delve into the reasons for sword "killings" in Europe.......as taking on a world-view of ancient beliefs may muddy the issue even further.
What do you think?

With best wishes,

Richard.

28th September 2008, 08:06 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Ritual killing of swords in burials A recent post showed an apparantly ancient sword, suggested Celtic, that was bent back into a circle, and supposed to be a sword which was ritually killed by being bent, to accompany the dead warrior into the next world. I am curious about whether this practice was exclusively Celtic, and whether it was consistantly practiced, or only occasionally. Also, there seems to be different views on whether these swords could have been bent backwards easily, especially without breaking them. Some sources suggest they were bent into almost an S shape, some say shaped like a strigil ( simple hook type shape), while others claim the blades were too brittle to be bent. There are suggestions also that the Celtic sword blades were not as pliable as claimed by Polybius c.225 BC when he wrote that the Celts blades bent after the first blow, and had to be bent back into shape under the foot of the warrior. The suggestion was that the blade would have to be reheated to be bent back, and the Romans, finding doubled blades in Celt graves began the tale of the faulty blades. I'd appreciate thoughts, examples, opinions. Just curious. All best regards, Jim

28th September 2008, 03:31 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Jim. I just found this new forum a few days ago, and it is a Very interesting place! It appears that the "killing" of a weapon was not exclusively Celtic. Anglo-Saxon and Viking age weapons have been found, heated and bent double, or twisted beyond repair, or on occasion broken into pieces and scattered through the grave. I suppose this practice had a practical purpose as well as spiritual; As we know, If the weapon was rendered useless, it could Still accompany the (useless!) corpse of it's owner to the "next world" where both, it would be presumed, would be restored.,........And the practical side was that the useless weapon wouldn't attract grave robbers, (which if not the Oldest profession, appears to be One of the oldest!) Based on this practicality, I would think the "killing" of the weapon would be quite widely practiced, until Christianity took hold. Another reason for "killing" seems to be to make a complete sacrifice of the object, a kind of "Votive offering" On the other hand; In the Icelandic sagas, a few famous swords were taken from earlier burial mounds, Skofnung is probably the most famous, and had probably been lain with King Hrolf Kraki for 300 years when it was recovered by Skeggi of Midfirth. (see "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England p. 11, 172 -74) This goes to show that the practice of killing blades, etc was not always undertaken. and Might be regarded as personal, or based on wether one could afford a pretty "thief proof' burial chamber or not! The sword you mentioned from the recent thread, (bent in a circle ) seems a bit unusual, and has me puzzled. It looks like it would have been a prime candidate to straighten out and re-temper..... not the usual bent flat killing. The blade looks in very good condition. I don't understant this one.... All the best, Jim. Richard.

28th September 2008, 07:20 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Richard, Its great to see you joining us here! Thank you for the outstanding explanation on this unusual practice, and the observations on the other example mentioned. I really appreciate your well written attention to detail on this, particularly observations on why this was not a standard practice. It seems also I had seen a suggestion that in times of war, this custom might have been circumvented as all weapons would be required. Also, warriors of rank typically had several swords, so perhaps alternate ones were 'sacrificed'. One reference noted examples that were not completely finished, as if deliberately produced for the occasion, such as being unsharpened and so on. All very best regards, Jim

29th September 2008, 04:46 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, I too have heard on occasion of a semi-finished sword being placed in the grave, and on one occasion, of a sword that was obviously old and worn out, with the blade mended in the middle with another piece of iron riveted along one side as a joiner. (let's hope the dead fellow didn't have much opposition when he got where he was going!.......not with a sword like that!) I have had a lively debate elswhere, re. Anglo-Saxon swords. It was presented as a case, that because there have been less found in graves in the north and west of England, this means they weren't there. I would counter this by saying that since the north and west were "frontier territory" (Britons (Welch) in west, Picts in North and Irish raiders both places,) I would submit that swords would not often be buried with the dead, as they were needed by the living. (this is just a long-winded way of saying I agree with you re. the reasons for not killing/burying a sword!) I gather from Hilda E Davidson's "Sword in Anglo-Saxon England", that in this Anglo-Saxon period, that while some swords were definitely "sacrificed," most swords were buried with the utmost care, protected in its scabbard, and often wrapped in cloth for further protection, or on occasion even in what appears to have been a wooden box, judging by a row of iron nails in the grave, over the sword. Of course, by the time of the Viking raids, England was nominally Christian, and burials with grave-goods was fast on its way out. In Nordic lands,(nominally pagan) the killing of weapons appears to have continued quite a while longer, but was by no means the only practice. All the best, R.

19th October 2008, 10:53 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	In several Pre-Columbian cultures, both in Mexico and South America, It was a common practice to "kill" a shaman's personal artifacts to allow the imprisoned spirits to be freed to either accompany the shaman in his continuing journey (after death) or to just allow the spirits their freedom. A third possibility exists in that they wanted to be sure that someone else was not able to appropriate the "power objects" for his own use. Since a great many of these objects were ceramic, they were just broken and the pieces interred with the dead. It seems that these pieces were intentionally as other completely intact ceramics were found in the same grave site.

20th October 2008, 12:15 PM	#6
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	A good thread topic! I believe that the practice of bending or killing a warriors sword for the grave symbolises the death of their own physical form and spirit. In pre-Christian beliefs, and following into Christianity, the sword is the spirit. Of the realms or Worlds in which we exist and interplay, there are two, the physical and metaphysical, thus providing us with a physical and non-physical spirit. When ones physical body and spirit died, this was a way to symbolise that to all, that literally, their sword had died.

21st October 2008, 04:59 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Paul, You mention two "spirits" (physical and non-physical) I have not heard of a "physical spirit" before. I always thought that in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon cultures, wether pre-Christian or Christian, that we were comprised of three elements, body, mind (reasoning) and spirit, and that the spirit lives on, in another world. ...wether this other world is the hall of Valhalla, or Heaven or Hell (seperation) is beyond this subject, but in all cases the spirit is quite clearly defined as living on. Can you elaborate on where the idea of two spirits comes from?, as I don't seem to see it in old Norse or A-Saxon or Celtic belief, and might be missing something! Thanks Paul, Richard.

21st October 2008, 08:26 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Richard, There are several societies where there are two spirits. In the ancient Hawaiian, they believed there was a "low self" spirit that was connected to us on the physical plane and a "high self" spirit that was far above us on a metaphysical plane and could only be reached through the "low self spirit." Some shamanic-animistic beliefs centered around two spirits also. One spirit (the physical) is your basic persona, the part you might recognize as "you," the composite of your memories and experiences since your birth. The spirit that recognizes only you, beginning with your birth. This spirit can end at your "death." The non-physical spirit is more like an "essence." This goes on, perhaps remembering the "physical spirit selves," like chapters in a book. But this "essence" or non-physical spirit endures forever. Maya Deren in her excellent, fascinating and highly recommended book, "The Divine Horsemen, The Living Gods of Haiti," makes reference to this continuing essence, but makes it more a part of the overall tribal or totemic spirit that she calls a Loa. http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Horseme.../dp/0914232630

22nd October 2008, 02:55 AM	#9
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	These are very interesting references Bill, thanks. Ones that I was previously unaware of, but tie in perfectly with previous experience. My reasoning for the physical spirit is based on the natural law of proportionate physical/metaphysical symmetry - As Above, so Below. Given that there is a physical body and mind, a physical spirit would naturally complement our trio of elements that comprise our working whole. Likewise there can co-exist within our system a metaphysical mind, body and spirit. Thus, when the physical body and mind dies, we might also want our physical spirit to pass on with us instead of hanging around here for longer than necessary. One way to symbolise that was to break or cast away what was the ultimate symbol of our personal spirit on Earth (the sword). The physical spirit takes on the very form of our own physical bodies and are often recognised as ghosts. Interestingly enough, I found myself posting on another blades forum tonight about ghosts Sleep tight!

23rd October 2008, 03:10 PM	#10
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hi Bill and Paul. Thank you for the replies. The information you supplied is very interesting. From what I gather though, these two-spirit beliefs are from a different part of the world, and I have not run accross any such beliefs in European history. (but might be wrong!) As Jim's original post was about Celtic and later European sword "killings", It is only European beliefs we need address here as pertinent to the subject. To me, it is apparent through grave goods, that the deceased in pre-Christian times, were generally expected to make the trip to the "other world" and outfitted for the journey with food and drink to "keep him going" along the way, and quite often weapons to safeguard him as well. Even now, in what is nominally a Christian age, we still have vestages of these same beliefs, and often bury loved ones with some token of our affection and respect. It is with such beliefs in mind, that we should probably delve into the reasons for sword "killings" in Europe.......as taking on a world-view of ancient beliefs may muddy the issue even further. What do you think? With best wishes, Richard.