Polish gorget

akoch · 13th October 2008, 08:04 PM

Hello,
I've just seen a polish gorget, in one of auction hauses.
What do you think about it?

regards
Tom

rand · 18th October 2008, 02:43 AM

Call me crazy, but the wear and soil accululation at the edge of the brass looks suspicious, it doesn;t look like something that has been there a long time. The center rivet the peening is high, the color seems bright, I would want to take a very close hands on look at this.... I'd want to look at the bottom of the tool marks on the decoration on the brass with a good loop or microscope to look for signs of age.

rand

Ed · 18th October 2008, 11:24 PM

Dodgy, at best.

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2008, 08:00 PM

Hello Akoch,
First of all I'd like to say welcome to this forum, and thank you for the interesting post on this gorget. I have been watching this with interest hoping that there would be some input or discussion on these elements of armour. As I do not have any great knowledge in this field, I wanted to at least make a few notes on this item. After the great thread we have had on lancers, the subject of the famed Winged Hussars of Poland seems well placed and this gorget brings more interest to the fore.

In "Polish Winged Hussars 1576-1775" (Osprey, R.Brzezinski) it is noted that these hussars often had burnished or blackened armour to prevent rust, and that both steel surfaces as well as brass fittings seem crude from close up. While the hussars were typically from the Polish gentry, it is suggested that the 'pacholiks' or ranks to the rear, wore similar gear, but of lesser quality though certainly functionally protective.

It would seem that while colorful illustrations and artwork portraying these hussars show magnificent armour, and pageantry with long lances, flowing pennons, leopard skin cloaks and of course, the significant wings mounted on the hussar himself, that perhaps actual appearance of these forces on campaign may have been more pragmatic.

This gorget, seems to be rather in line with rank and file quality, and though there are questions of consistancy with some indicators of age on the piece, I am wondering if either cleanup or 'restoration' prior to auction might account for these factors. Naturally hands on examination would reveal tool marks etc. and polished or cleaned brass makes assessment by photo almost impossible.

The style, with the brass knights cross (though workmanlike) and the scalloped borders seem consistant with gorgets and cuirass of the 17th century seen in museum example photos.

Best regards,
Jim

Jamaz · 4th November 2008, 04:31 PM

Difficult to say looking on pictures, but I don't like those copper rivets. The emblem and the edge look quite fine, but mounting is secondary in my opinion (very poor). The leather band would be interesting, but is not enough visible on the pictures. The emblems on such gorgets and breastplates are usually "written" in circle or square.

Kind regards,
Jamaz.

13th October 2008, 08:04 PM	#1
akoch Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1	Polish gorget Hello, I've just seen a polish gorget, in one of auction hauses. What do you think about it? regards Tom

18th October 2008, 02:43 AM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Call me crazy, but the wear and soil accululation at the edge of the brass looks suspicious, it doesn;t look like something that has been there a long time. The center rivet the peening is high, the color seems bright, I would want to take a very close hands on look at this.... I'd want to look at the bottom of the tool marks on the decoration on the brass with a good loop or microscope to look for signs of age. rand

18th October 2008, 11:24 PM	#3
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Dodgy, at best.

21st October 2008, 08:00 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hello Akoch, First of all I'd like to say welcome to this forum, and thank you for the interesting post on this gorget. I have been watching this with interest hoping that there would be some input or discussion on these elements of armour. As I do not have any great knowledge in this field, I wanted to at least make a few notes on this item. After the great thread we have had on lancers, the subject of the famed Winged Hussars of Poland seems well placed and this gorget brings more interest to the fore. In "Polish Winged Hussars 1576-1775" (Osprey, R.Brzezinski) it is noted that these hussars often had burnished or blackened armour to prevent rust, and that both steel surfaces as well as brass fittings seem crude from close up. While the hussars were typically from the Polish gentry, it is suggested that the 'pacholiks' or ranks to the rear, wore similar gear, but of lesser quality though certainly functionally protective. It would seem that while colorful illustrations and artwork portraying these hussars show magnificent armour, and pageantry with long lances, flowing pennons, leopard skin cloaks and of course, the significant wings mounted on the hussar himself, that perhaps actual appearance of these forces on campaign may have been more pragmatic. This gorget, seems to be rather in line with rank and file quality, and though there are questions of consistancy with some indicators of age on the piece, I am wondering if either cleanup or 'restoration' prior to auction might account for these factors. Naturally hands on examination would reveal tool marks etc. and polished or cleaned brass makes assessment by photo almost impossible. The style, with the brass knights cross (though workmanlike) and the scalloped borders seem consistant with gorgets and cuirass of the 17th century seen in museum example photos. Best regards, Jim

4th November 2008, 04:31 PM	#5
Jamaz Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lower Silesia, Poland Posts: 9	Difficult to say looking on pictures, but I don't like those copper rivets. The emblem and the edge look quite fine, but mounting is secondary in my opinion (very poor). The leather band would be interesting, but is not enough visible on the pictures. The emblems on such gorgets and breastplates are usually "written" in circle or square. Kind regards, Jamaz.