ketland sabers

chevalier · 10th September 2008, 04:02 PM

anyone have one of these? they are superb looking weapons...

celtan · 10th September 2008, 06:33 PM

Is this one..?

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

anyone have one of these? they are superb looking weapons...

Ahhh....the rare, elusive and mysterious 'Ketland Sabres', much the kith and kin of the Blucher Sabre's and Sinclair Sabres !

This really had me going a minute as I tried to recall where I've seen the Ketland moniker. Then I remembered the name Ketland & Co. which is of course commonly seen on flintlocks often produced for North American trade. Apparantly this firm produced trade guns and other weaponry going to America, and I believe they sent swords as well, but I think the question is..whether any of the swords were so marked. Have you seen examples with markings Chevalier?
While the guns were intended for American Indian tribes primarilyand the locks clearly stamped, the swords presumably were retailed to American military officers, and were probably much like the excellent example Manuel Luis shows here with the 'seven ball' eagle head hilt.

I think the real mystery with these five and seven ball hilts, is what sort of symbolism might be held in the numeric of the ball decoration. There was an article in the "Journal of the Arms and Armour Society" writtenback in the 60's I believe, and the same question was posed, though suggestions were inconclusive. I was as usual, completely intrigued by such esoterica, and tried to come up with solutions. Brian Robson suggested in communication that is was simply aesthetic, but in a society as steeped in tradition and symbolism as that of Great Britain, I found that simplicity hard to fathom.

If there are any of the trade swords handled by (William) Ketland & Co. that are marked with the name I would very much to see them posted here.While many of the outfitters and retail firms did mark sword blades, it seems likely that many weren't. J.J.Runkel, who was of course a key purveyor in this period, did typically mark his weapons obtained from Solingen, but many were left unmarked if I understand correctly.

celtan · 10th September 2008, 10:59 PM

Hi Jim,

I'm not sure whether mine is a Ketland. It might be a very early Ames.

I saw a spadroon such as mine being IDed somewhere else as a Ketland.

Did Ketlands sport straight blades , or were they curved..?

BTW, my name is Manuel Luis, Manuel, or even "Manolo" (spanish nickname for Manuel).

I don't mind the Gonzalo, though, it's also a family name. The original, Gonzal, is a spanish derivative of the old visigothic Gunther.

Gonzalez means "son of Gonzal/Gunther. Like-wise Goncalvo/Goncalvez.

Obviously, I like ethimology: words are cultural tracks left behind by our ancestors...

Best

M

chevalier · 11th September 2008, 01:20 AM

i wondered about the relationship (if there was one) between ketland and american eagle (pommel) sabers.....

they both look almost identical, but ive never seen a weapon that was marked as both "ketland" and "american eagle".

chevalier · 11th September 2008, 01:32 AM

ketland saber

A.W. Spies saber

american eagle saber

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2008, 01:49 AM

My apologies Manuel Luis!! Reading too many posts at once and lost track as I was posting, thank you for your courtesy in noting my 'fox paws'

Chevalier, really interesting examples, but are these marked in the blade decoration with the names you note, American Eagle, Spies, Ketland?
As mentioned, Ketland was a commercial supplier so it is anyones guess how the terms might be interpolated. Mowbray wrote the book on American Eagle Head Swords so perhaps if anyone has a copy of that.

chevalier · 11th September 2008, 02:42 AM

yes,

for the spies saber.

the other two where sold (advertised) as "ketland saber" and "american eagle saber"

celtan · 11th September 2008, 03:20 AM

Once again, no need to apologize for anything at all, now or ever.

I'm currently auctioning at EBay a A.W.Spies saber, very much like the one you show. Auction ends tomorrow, if you wants to see more pics. check it our before it closes. Do a search for US Mounted Artillery saber.

BTW, sometimes I intend to ask other collectors about my items, before putting them in the block.

Is there any local regulations against this, similar to those as SFI? I think that's terrible politics for the former, and would be a significant difference between the two...

Best

M

celtan · 11th September 2008, 03:24 AM

I hadn't even heard about Ketlands!

Regards

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

i wondered about the relationship (if there was one) between ketland and american eagle (pommel) sabers.....

they both look almost identical, but ive never seen a weapon that was marked as both "ketland" and "american eagle".

chevalier · 11th September 2008, 03:40 AM

i see your saber, unfortunatly its a bit out of my "target price range" right now

celtan · 11th September 2008, 04:06 AM

Oh, don't worry! They come in all sorts of shapes and prices. Yet the question remains, is that the Ketland you mention?

It looks just like one of the pics you posted, that's the reason I brought same to the forum's attention. From what I remember of its origins, its 1820s vintage.

Regards

M

chevalier · 11th September 2008, 04:19 AM

they could be, im trying to find more info on A.W. Spies, apprently he was also a firearms manufacturer/dealer....

kahnjar1 · 11th September 2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ahhh....the rare, elusive and mysterious 'Ketland Sabres', much the kith and kin of the Blucher Sabre's and Sinclair Sabres !

This really had me going a minute as I tried to recall where I've seen the Ketland moniker. Then I remembered the name Ketland & Co. which is of course commonly seen on flintlocks often produced for North American trade. Apparantly this firm produced trade guns and other weaponry going to America, and I believe they sent swords as well, but I think the question is..whether any of the swords were so marked. Have you seen examples with markings Chevalier?
While the guns were intended for American Indian tribes primarilyand the locks clearly stamped, the swords presumably were retailed to American military officers, and were probably much like the excellent example Manuel Luis shows here with the 'seven ball' eagle head hilt.

I think the real mystery with these five and seven ball hilts, is what sort of symbolism might be held in the numeric of the ball decoration. There was an article in the "Journal of the Arms and Armour Society" writtenback in the 60's I believe, and the same question was posed, though suggestions were inconclusive. I was as usual, completely intrigued by such esoterica, and tried to come up with solutions. Brian Robson suggested in communication that is was simply aesthetic, but in a society as steeped in tradition and symbolism as that of Great Britain, I found that simplicity hard to fathom.

If there are any of the trade swords handled by (William) Ketland & Co. that are marked with the name I would very much to see them posted here.While many of the outfitters and retail firms did mark sword blades, it seems likely that many weren't. J.J.Runkel, who was of course a key purveyor in this period, did typically mark his weapons obtained from Solingen, but many were left unmarked if I understand correctly.

Not really to do with the thread but some background on Ketland & Co.
The firm of W Ketland (Ketland & Co) originates in Birmingham, England in 1740, and actually make very high quality Guns and pistols. As with most gunmakers they also made what were known as "Trade guns", usually of lower quality, and not finished as well. The Ketland private mark which was stamped on his pieces, was in fact the precurser of the modern Birmingham Proof Mark, which appears on all English made firearms which have been proved at that Proof House. There is also a Proof House in London which of course has its own mark.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2008, 06:38 AM

Outstanding discussion guys! and its great to keep learning more on the wider range of arms, very impressive items you're all displaying as well.

It is important to remember, since it has been brought up, that while we enjoy discussing all forms of arms and armour, we prefer to leave the commercial aspects out of the discussions. Its OK to post and discuss any weapon, as long as its not in a current auction, and please leave any dialogue regarding sale or trade out of the discussion.

Over the years it has been maintained that keeping any mention of selling an item or discussion regarding that or value estimates etc. should be kept to private messages or email. This is one of the reasons we maintain the swap forum also (which seems to be working well!!). It seems that this policy has been so standard here that it has been almost a given for many years, and has seldom been an issue among members in thier compliance, and with a very busy swap forum !

We're here to learn about arms and armour, and in posting and discussing them, information about whether they are for sale or not is irrelevant, and if they are currently being auctioned or sold may lead to problems if comments or opinions may be construed to negatively impact that status.

As far as discussing items before they are up for auction, I think that is OK but the discussion should terminate when it is posted for auction. Straightforward dealing with the matter should be observed, much as Manuel Luis has shown here by divulging intent to auction concerning a weapon he is mentioning.

Actually the same rules and so on that are in place on the Ethnographic Forum are applicable here, and as always, everyones understanding and cooperation are very much appreciated.

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2008, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Not really to do with the thread but some background on Ketland & Co.
The firm of W Ketland (Ketland & Co) originates in Birmingham, England in 1740, and actually make very high quality Guns and pistols. As with most gunmakers they also made what were known as "Trade guns", usually of lower quality, and not finished as well. The Ketland private mark which was stamped on his pieces, was in fact the precurser of the modern Birmingham Proof Mark, which appears on all English made firearms which have been proved at that Proof House. There is also a Proof House in London which of course has its own mark.
Stu

Outstanding info Stu!!! Thank you very much for the detail on that.

kahnjar1 · 11th September 2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Outstanding info Stu!!! Thank you very much for the detail on that.

Hi Jim, and others interested.
I have amassed over the years quite a reasonable amount of information on English, Irish and Scottish Gunmakers, and also Proof Marks from many countries--not just England. If anyone needs any specific information, they could PM me or if they know my direct email, then thru that. More than happy to share knowledge.
Regards Stu

10th September 2008, 04:02 PM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	ketland sabers anyone have one of these? they are superb looking weapons...

10th September 2008, 06:33 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Is this one..?

10th September 2008, 10:59 PM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Jim, I'm not sure whether mine is a Ketland. It might be a very early Ames. I saw a spadroon such as mine being IDed somewhere else as a Ketland. Did Ketlands sport straight blades , or were they curved..? BTW, my name is Manuel Luis, Manuel, or even "Manolo" (spanish nickname for Manuel). I don't mind the Gonzalo, though, it's also a family name. The original, Gonzal, is a spanish derivative of the old visigothic Gunther. Gonzalez means "son of Gonzal/Gunther. Like-wise Goncalvo/Goncalvez. Obviously, I like ethimology: words are cultural tracks left behind by our ancestors... Best M

11th September 2008, 01:20 AM	#5
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i wondered about the relationship (if there was one) between ketland and american eagle (pommel) sabers..... they both look almost identical, but ive never seen a weapon that was marked as both "ketland" and "american eagle".

11th September 2008, 01:32 AM	#6
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	ketland saber A.W. Spies saber american eagle saber

11th September 2008, 01:49 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	My apologies Manuel Luis!! Reading too many posts at once and lost track as I was posting, thank you for your courtesy in noting my 'fox paws' Chevalier, really interesting examples, but are these marked in the blade decoration with the names you note, American Eagle, Spies, Ketland? As mentioned, Ketland was a commercial supplier so it is anyones guess how the terms might be interpolated. Mowbray wrote the book on American Eagle Head Swords so perhaps if anyone has a copy of that.

11th September 2008, 02:42 AM	#8
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	yes, for the spies saber. the other two where sold (advertised) as "ketland saber" and "american eagle saber"

11th September 2008, 03:20 AM	#9
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Once again, no need to apologize for anything at all, now or ever. I'm currently auctioning at EBay a A.W.Spies saber, very much like the one you show. Auction ends tomorrow, if you wants to see more pics. check it our before it closes. Do a search for US Mounted Artillery saber. BTW, sometimes I intend to ask other collectors about my items, before putting them in the block. Is there any local regulations against this, similar to those as SFI? I think that's terrible politics for the former, and would be a significant difference between the two... Best M

11th September 2008, 03:40 AM	#11
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i see your saber, unfortunatly its a bit out of my "target price range" right now

11th September 2008, 04:06 AM	#12
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Oh, don't worry! They come in all sorts of shapes and prices. Yet the question remains, is that the Ketland you mention? It looks just like one of the pics you posted, that's the reason I brought same to the forum's attention. From what I remember of its origins, its 1820s vintage. Regards M

11th September 2008, 04:19 AM	#13
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	they could be, im trying to find more info on A.W. Spies, apprently he was also a firearms manufacturer/dealer....

11th September 2008, 06:38 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Outstanding discussion guys! and its great to keep learning more on the wider range of arms, very impressive items you're all displaying as well. It is important to remember, since it has been brought up, that while we enjoy discussing all forms of arms and armour, we prefer to leave the commercial aspects out of the discussions. Its OK to post and discuss any weapon, as long as its not in a current auction, and please leave any dialogue regarding sale or trade out of the discussion. Over the years it has been maintained that keeping any mention of selling an item or discussion regarding that or value estimates etc. should be kept to private messages or email. This is one of the reasons we maintain the swap forum also (which seems to be working well!!). It seems that this policy has been so standard here that it has been almost a given for many years, and has seldom been an issue among members in thier compliance, and with a very busy swap forum ! We're here to learn about arms and armour, and in posting and discussing them, information about whether they are for sale or not is irrelevant, and if they are currently being auctioned or sold may lead to problems if comments or opinions may be construed to negatively impact that status. As far as discussing items before they are up for auction, I think that is OK but the discussion should terminate when it is posted for auction. Straightforward dealing with the matter should be observed, much as Manuel Luis has shown here by divulging intent to auction concerning a weapon he is mentioning. Actually the same rules and so on that are in place on the Ethnographic Forum are applicable here, and as always, everyones understanding and cooperation are very much appreciated.