Smallsword for comments

[TVV]

I hate to have this very modest smallsword as the first weapon to be discussed here, but I have had it for almost a year now without knowing much about it and these forums are the only place I feel really comfortable posting it.
Can you help me with some questions?
1. Is this a smallsword or is this more of a later court swrod?
2. What period is it in? If this helps, I believe the pas d'anes look symetrical.
3. Could it be attributed to a certain Geographical area?

Thank you all for your answres,

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Well done Teodor! Now that is interesting, I've honestly never seen a smallsword with hilt completely done in brass. Looking forward to some responses, and anxious to know more on this as well.

No markings I presume?

Thank you for posting this to get things going,

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

In checking "The Smallsword in England" , J.Aylward, 1945, there is really not a hilt that corresponds to this one, which though very attractive, is by smallsword standards quite workmanlike. It seems rudimentally styled in line with the tall hilt and pronounced pas d'ane rings of mid 18th century.

It is noted by Aylward that brass hilts were typically not highly regarded as were the very ornate and chiseled hilts often favored with these fashion oriented swords. Also, that they were "...usually a casting left almost untouched as it came from the molds, copying in a summary kind of way the features of the more expensive hilts of its period" (p.55).

It is noted that these were usually furnished by 17th century rapier blades, often German made (but carrying the Spanish names often spuriously applied).
It seems this blade is likely a genuine 18th century smallsword example. It also states in the book that in 1760's and somewhat later German makers produced rather plain hilts for English market.

At least this gives us some idea on this one, I would think probably about latter 18th century. Whether considered rather pedestrian or not by smallsword enthusiasts, I think its a rather handsome weapon, and looks like it could be pretty lethal (though Aylward claims the brass hilts were heavy and not well balanced).

Those are just my ideas from this book, and I hope there are others out there that might offer observations as well. Smallswords are really pretty specialized, but a most fascinating topic that it would be great to learn more about.

[Henk]

I found in the book by Robert Wilkinson-Latham, Swords in colour a page with fancy swords. My copy is in Dutch. These swords originate from England, France and Italy.
I think Jim is right about the dating, 1700 to 1750.

The one on picture 17 on the left comes close to your sword. The hilts however are silver or steel. Looks like brass hilts are rather uncommon.

[TVV]

Jim and Henk,

Thank you for your responses.

I agree that whoever was the original owner of my smallsword was on a tight budget and this was perhaps the best he could afford. The brass does not bear any traces of gilt, and is therefore as plain as it gets.

Thanks for helping me narrow the time frame to the second half of the 18th century.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

While these brass hilt weapons may well have been inexpensive, I am wondering if their simplicity may have been due to practicality, and intended as purely fighting pieces. I know that officers often had dress or levee swords, undress for official functions, and combat weapons which were pretty much strictly business. I also am wondering if a weapon such as this might have been in that category for maritime use by an officer.

The first thing everyone would say of course is 'where is the fouled anchor marking ?'. It is known of course that brass was favored in maritime hilts due to potential corrosion. Just things to consider.

Still think its a quite handsome piece, but I like 'real deal' weapons, simple but effective.

[Paul Macdonald]

Hi Folks!

This is an interesting wee piece and I hope I can shed a bit more light on it.

The blade is certainly an C18th piece and perfectly functional. It is difficult to ascertain much about the guard (any chance of a pic of the butterfly shell guard, lower face?), but proportions and form look original, as does the pommel.

The grip appears to be original, and at one time has had a twisted wire wrapping, most likely steel and/or a combination of brass or copper wire.

I would suggest though that the pas d`ane, ricasso and knucklebow are relatively recent additions.
These do not appear to be cast, but soldered or brazed together from stock round section brass, certainly to replicate the basic form of an original style hilt.

C18th smallswords with brass cast hilts were quite common in England, as they were the simplest and least expensive to make and buy. These can be found from c.1680`s onwards and were popular until the late C18th.
In these examples however, the pas d`ane, knucklebow and ricasso are all one piece and usually with more detail in the casting.

Here are a couple of examples of my own recent manufacture, but cast directly from original hilts in either case -







Another giveaway in this case is the form of the ricasso. For this to be primarily functional, it needs to have flat surfaces for the forefinger and thumb to sit against when gripped for use.

I hope that this is helpful towards identification.

All the best,

Macdonald

[TVV]

Paul,

Thank you very much, your explanation makes a ton of sense. The attached picture of the shell guard is the only one I have right now, and I can try to take a better one when I back home later today.

As you can see, it lacks any detail, just like the knuckle bow.

I also agree with you about the missing wire. Would you say that the patterns one sees on the grip are traces of the wire binding?

The pommel is a different color than the rest of the hilt as well, with more reddish hues, perhaps due to more copper in the alloy.

Best regards,

Teodor

[Paul Macdonald]

Hi Teodor,

No problem, happy to be of help

The patterns in the grip are those of twisted wire binding. I might suggest that steel wire has formed at least some of the grip pattern wire, as it has indented into the softer brass. The same patterns can be found on originals where the wire has disappeared to leave a wooden core grip.

Looking at the guard from that angle, I might also suggest that it is from a late C19th fencing foil.

Any original C18th smallsword guard usually has something of a slight bowl or dished form to it, which this lacks. It is an identical guard as used by standard salle French fencing foils from the late C19th.

I also noticed an unusual notch in the side of the blade near the guard. Looks like it has been either machined or filed for whatever reason?

Hope the above helps.

Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald

[Dom]

may be an "épée de cour"

the sword of court is a weapon created in second half of the XVIIe century and used until the any end of the XVIIIe century.
in France, during King time, everybody was having right to enter Versailles,
nobody was allowed to enter Versailles Palace without bearing a sword
for that, it was a business of rented swords at entrance,
and for sure .. not first class weapons

but, it's just an idea

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Smallsword.jpg
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_cour

à +

Dom

[TVV]

Here is another one for comments.

The boat shaped hilt is brass(?) and was once gilted. The blade however I do not think is a smallsword one, and I suspect it might have been taken from one of those schlagers popular among German students in the 19th century. Could the hilt be earlier, from a smallsword, or is this simply a fancier schlager?

I have attached some pictures and am looking forward to your comments. I will be gone for the next few days, so please excuse me if I am unable to answer responses to the thread.

Regards,
Teodor

[TVV]

I am wondering if I should consider swapping the hilts on the two smallswords in this thread? Unless there is a reason I should both the way they are, I will probably consider doing so, but first I want to get as many opinions as possible.
Thank you,
Teodor

[M ELEY]

Hello Teodor,
The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress.

As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Teodor,
The smallsword with the brass boat-shaped hilt is from the German Republics and dates to around 1800-10. I had one very similar a few years back that I had done research on (unfortunately, I don't still have the references to back this assessment, but several others I had been in contact with had also confirmed it). IMHO, the blade, although flimsy, is original to the piece. Many of these, after all, inspired the epee and foils that were to come. The blade on mine was flimsy and particularly plain and strictly for dress.

As far as swapping the hilts...gee, I don't know. I'm sort of a purist when it comes to swords. Composites are not my thing, but that is up to the collector, much as is cleaning a piece, rebluing a blade, firing an old musket, etc.

Mark,

Thank you very much. I agree with you that composites are not a good thing. However, I thought that the smallswords I posted in this thread were composites to start with, and so swapping parts would not have changed much.
Now that I know this is not the case for the German smallsword at least, I will be more than happy to leave it as is.

Again, thank you Sir,

Teodor

[Paul Macdonald]

The blade on the boat shell smallsword appears to be that of a C19th duelling sabre.

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...perhaps I spoke too soon about the blade on this piece. The pics originally gave me the impression that it was like the one on mine, a three-sided blade like those found on many short swords of the period. Having cleaned off my glasses ( ), it might in fact be more of the type previously mentioned, such as a schlager. I do apologize for not looking closer.

[TVV]

Thank you Paul and Mark,

For confirming my initial impression that the blade was later to the hilt.

Teodor