African ethno sabre for coments

chevalier · 17th August 2008, 04:36 PM

the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

fernando · 17th August 2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

All doors are still open.
If we look at their mask typology, even mixes maybe seen; i have just seen a mask half monkey half hornbill.
But i also noticed that the ground hornbill, such one with the eye wattles, lives more to the east of Africa.
It could be a coincidence, but the majority of hornbills i see carved in Malian masks, are more the type represented with their bills strongly down curved ... certainly other variants.
Fernando

fearn · 17th August 2008, 06:24 PM

Hi All,

Interesting piece. Thought I'd throw a couple of observations in. First off, the hilt seems to appear to be a different critter depending on which way you look at it, so perhaps the relevant question is, which way was it intended to be observed? I'm guessing from the side, which would suggest it's not supposed to be a cobra.

Second observation: it's possible to get A bird list for Mali. There are three confirmed hornbill species for Mali, of which the Abysinnian Ground Hornbill appears to be the only resident. The picture from Wikipedia is attached. To me there is a resemblance between bird and hilt, but only from the side.

While I'm not going to argue that the hilt is solidly representational, I personally think it's more hornbillish than not. If you believe this website to the Dogon, the hornbill is a psychpomp (escort for the souls of the dead) that also stands for the continuance of human life. There's also artwork for snakes (such as the god Lebe), hyenas, and lizards, none of which are terribly representational. Still, to me it looks like a bird.

My 0.0000002 cents,

F

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2008, 06:53 PM

This really is an outstanding discussion guys!! Its great to see everyone bringing in such great suggestions and offering supporting evidence to be considered.
Gav, thats an excellent observation about the jackal, and I must admit that I thought of it when I first saw the sword, thinking of the jackal headed god in Egypt. I first thought that geographically unlikely, completely overlooking the ancient ancestry of the Dogon. Well done!

Chevalier, good to see you come in on this, and your support on the hornbill plausibility well placed concurring with Tim's notes.

Fearn, excellent observation, this image is definitely multifaceted as its identity seems to vary in accordance to angle of view. Absolutely fascinating information as well on the psychpomp, and the hornbill inclusion in the afterlife concept, which seems to correspond with the jackal god with similar purpose if I understand correctly. Thank you for the link.

David, excellent continuing support for the cobra plausibility !

Fernando, it does seem that Ashoka Arts has very well described the piece in an objective sense, and as you say, until stronger proof to the contrary is discovered, the Dogon attribution must stand. I think that it is fascinating to see everyone working together reaching further forensically into the possibilities, of which many seem to support the Dogon identification.

Gentlemen, if I may say so, this in my opinion is truly what the study of weapons is all about! It is great to keep learning more as we study each one, and ideas and shared information strengthen collectively the knowledge of us all. Whether decisively identified or not, this sword has served us well!!

Thank you guys

fearn · 17th August 2008, 07:41 PM

Glad you're enjoying this, Jim. I am too.

Here's another thought. Perhaps, instead of a cobra's hood, the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill.

See the attached pic. I didn't realize abyssinian ground hornbills were quite that weird. Mascara has nothing on them...

F

fernando · 17th August 2008, 08:18 PM

Hi Fearn, it's a pleasure seeing you coming in

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

... the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill...

It's precisely with the (Abyssinian) ground hornbill species that the bird possibility becomes stronger, i guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

... the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

Eventually i was misguided by a web site which mentioned that this bird exists in the area east to Uganda.

http://montereybay.com/creagrus/ground_hornbills.html

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2008, 08:22 PM

Good one Fearn!!! Maybelline city!!!! now that is weird.

fernando · 23rd August 2008, 03:03 PM

Looking for persons who may have something (further) to say about this, i have managed to establish contact with a researcher and author of some books on Dogon cosmologic symbols and mythology, Laird Scranton. This is his opinnion:

Although I cannot verify beyond question that the object is Dogon, my best guess based on Dogon symbolism is that it represents a stylized jackal - an animal that symbolizes the concept of disorder for the Dogon. A sword is an object that can wreak havoc and create chaos, so the jackal would be a very appropriate choice.

Still a "best guess" and not yet solid evidence. So the case is not yet filed.

Fernando

katana · 23rd August 2008, 05:45 PM

Hi Fernando,
I am still skeptical that it represents a Jackal. One of its characteristics is its pointed ears...surely a representation would have this feature

I have searched the many forms of Dogon masks but cannot find one that is described as a Jackel...or has rounded ears / large eye ridges/ 'cobra hood'.
There is an African wild dog that has the rounded ears but the Dogon area is not within it's 'range'. There is , of course, the possibility that the sword, although acquired from the Dogon was manufactured elsewhere.

If it is a Jackal ..couldn't the sword be descibed as a 'dog on sword'

If I discover any relevent information I will post it for you.

Kind Regards David

17th August 2008, 06:24 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Interesting piece. Thought I'd throw a couple of observations in. First off, the hilt seems to appear to be a different critter depending on which way you look at it, so perhaps the relevant question is, which way was it intended to be observed? I'm guessing from the side, which would suggest it's not supposed to be a cobra. Second observation: it's possible to get A bird list for Mali. There are three confirmed hornbill species for Mali, of which the Abysinnian Ground Hornbill appears to be the only resident. The picture from Wikipedia is attached. To me there is a resemblance between bird and hilt, but only from the side. While I'm not going to argue that the hilt is solidly representational, I personally think it's more hornbillish than not. If you believe this website to the Dogon, the hornbill is a psychpomp (escort for the souls of the dead) that also stands for the continuance of human life. There's also artwork for snakes (such as the god Lebe), hyenas, and lizards, none of which are terribly representational. Still, to me it looks like a bird. My 0.0000002 cents, F Attached Images

17th August 2008, 07:41 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Glad you're enjoying this, Jim. I am too. Here's another thought. Perhaps, instead of a cobra's hood, the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill. See the attached pic. I didn't realize abyssinian ground hornbills were quite that weird. Mascara has nothing on them... F Attached Images

17th August 2008, 04:36 PM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

17th August 2008, 06:53 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	This really is an outstanding discussion guys!! Its great to see everyone bringing in such great suggestions and offering supporting evidence to be considered. Gav, thats an excellent observation about the jackal, and I must admit that I thought of it when I first saw the sword, thinking of the jackal headed god in Egypt. I first thought that geographically unlikely, completely overlooking the ancient ancestry of the Dogon. Well done! Chevalier, good to see you come in on this, and your support on the hornbill plausibility well placed concurring with Tim's notes. Fearn, excellent observation, this image is definitely multifaceted as its identity seems to vary in accordance to angle of view. Absolutely fascinating information as well on the psychpomp, and the hornbill inclusion in the afterlife concept, which seems to correspond with the jackal god with similar purpose if I understand correctly. Thank you for the link. David, excellent continuing support for the cobra plausibility ! Fernando, it does seem that Ashoka Arts has very well described the piece in an objective sense, and as you say, until stronger proof to the contrary is discovered, the Dogon attribution must stand. I think that it is fascinating to see everyone working together reaching further forensically into the possibilities, of which many seem to support the Dogon identification. Gentlemen, if I may say so, this in my opinion is truly what the study of weapons is all about! It is great to keep learning more as we study each one, and ideas and shared information strengthen collectively the knowledge of us all. Whether decisively identified or not, this sword has served us well!! Thank you guys

17th August 2008, 08:22 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Good one Fearn!!! Maybelline city!!!! now that is weird.

23rd August 2008, 03:03 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Looking for persons who may have something (further) to say about this, i have managed to establish contact with a researcher and author of some books on Dogon cosmologic symbols and mythology, Laird Scranton. This is his opinnion: Although I cannot verify beyond question that the object is Dogon, my best guess based on Dogon symbolism is that it represents a stylized jackal - an animal that symbolizes the concept of disorder for the Dogon. A sword is an object that can wreak havoc and create chaos, so the jackal would be a very appropriate choice. Still a "best guess" and not yet solid evidence. So the case is not yet filed. Fernando

23rd August 2008, 05:45 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, I am still skeptical that it represents a Jackal. One of its characteristics is its pointed ears...surely a representation would have this feature I have searched the many forms of Dogon masks but cannot find one that is described as a Jackel...or has rounded ears / large eye ridges/ 'cobra hood'. There is an African wild dog that has the rounded ears but the Dogon area is not within it's 'range'. There is , of course, the possibility that the sword, although acquired from the Dogon was manufactured elsewhere. If it is a Jackal ..couldn't the sword be descibed as a 'dog on sword' If I discover any relevent information I will post it for you. Kind Regards David