My first Keris.....but is it a good one??

A. G. Maisey · 12th August 2008, 02:37 PM

You know, theoretically plastic jewels are just fine in Bali art work. All the texts tell us that in Bali art the important thing is the final effect,not the value of the materials used to achieve that effect, this is the reason that you will not infrequently find diamonds and rubies mixed up with glass in court pieces.

So, if you need to use a bit of plastic to achieve that final effect, does it matter?

My guess is that it does not matter to the Balinese, although we might find it a bit off-putting. But they don't really have to please us bules, do they?

katana · 12th August 2008, 06:41 PM

Thank you very much for all your replies

Sorry lemmythesmith for 'pipping you at the post'

It was the blade's obvious pamor and the nicely carved hilt that attracted me. I wanted at least one to add to my collection. (mind you, I said that when I obtained a Dha ...and now I have two

)
Should I be alittle disappointed that this is in 'tourist dress' ? Hopefully, the jewels are not 'semi-precious' plastic

But having said that, plastic strips were highly prized by a number of African tribes, due to its scarcity. Thanks A. G. Maisey for the 'hint' about the price I paid, its nice to know I didn't pay over the odds.

When I receive it I will post better pictures and discription.

Kind Regards David

David · 12th August 2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Should I be alittle disappointed that this is in 'tourist dress' ?

Well, that depends on what you were looking for in the first place. As has been pointed out, as this particular "tourist" dress form goes, this one is fairly well executed. But this isn't the type of dress that you would expect to find on a blade that was used within the culture in the time period that this blade is from. This is a reasonably nice old Bali blade as far as i can tell from these photos. The dress, however, is probably no older that the 1960s, maybe later (does anybody know when this type of dress first appeared?) and AFAIK never the type of dress that was used within the culture for a serious person's keris. I have heard it suggested that this type of dress may have been used for theatrical purposes, but i have never had that confirmed.
To re-dress this blade probably would not be worth it to you. As is i would say it is definitely worth having, especially if your cost was low. But....if you are looking for a good example of a traditional blade (which this is) in appropriate dress (which this isn't) i am afraid that you will probably be looking for a second keris soon.

katana · 12th August 2008, 08:44 PM

Hi David

,
thanks for the 'enlightenment', I actually quite like the 'dress' as it is......its the word 'tourist' ...it always gives me the impression of 'poor quality', souvenir wallhangers....which this one does not seem to be. I have seen some 'tourist quality' keris before, these had thin blades and poorly carved hilts ...so please excuse my knee jerk reaction to the word.. 'tourist'

Regards David

PS You are probably right, I can see this one being the first...of a few

David · 12th August 2008, 09:20 PM

Hi David. I was making no attempts at "enlightenment" here, just merely responding to your question.

There is a reason that i use the word "tourist" in quotation marks. It is not a word i like using simply because it carries a lot of preconceived ideas with it. I don't mean it as a gauge for quality levels. I am just trying to point out that from a cultural perspective this type of dress is not what a Balinese man would general use for his personal keris. I would be interested to know more of the history of this sheath form if anybody knows it, whether it was developed just for the tourist trade or if there is some credence to the idea that they may have been used in traditional theater.
Again, the blade itself is certainly not of "tourist" quality. As for hilts though i would have to say that this is a fairly low level of carving for this particular hilt form. I have often seen old blades like this turn up in this style dress. I have always just figured that someone used what was cheap and available so that they could market the keris without to much of an investment involved. I have a nice one in a variation of this sheath form. It too is a decent carving like yours and the keris fits it perfectly so i kept it and just replaced the hilt with something nicer.

Henk · 12th August 2008, 10:13 PM

David,

At least you are lucky finding a real keris blade in this keris. I saw this one to on ebay. I think as Alan pointed out that the carving isn't so bad on this one. These type of keris vary from a rather nice carved example with a real blade to a very quickly carved dress with a cut out blade from a sheet of metal with painted pamor. This is certainly tourist stuff. If you're lucky the precious jewels are glass beads.
These kind of keris are used in barong dances, also performed for tourists. I can imagine that during these performances this kind of keris are sold to the public.

A. G. Maisey · 13th August 2008, 01:23 AM

I don't think this form of dress was ever used in dances in Bali, except possibly in the dances specifically staged for tourists, as remarked by Henk.

I do not know exactly when this form of dress began to appear, but I have never seen any that I could estimate a pre-WWII age for. In the late 1960's I don't think I saw any of this dress around, but it did seem to become fairly prevalent during the 1970's. The early ones used old blades, and there were some pretty decent blades in some of them, but later ones did only use flat iron, with painted on pamor.In recent years I have not seen these in Bali, and I think they may not be being made any longer, which makes this form a worthwhile part of a collection.

On the subject of "tourist quality".
In Bali there is a very wide range of quality that is available to tourists.
Some is superb art, specifically produced for tourist consumption. Some is absolute junk.
Virtually all of the craft and art that we presently identify as "Balinese" is the product of the influence of European artists who went to live in Bali in the late pre-WWII period. The original Balinese art was and is not nearly so refined and not nearly so attractive to the western taste as is the type of thing that we are accustomed to identifying as "Balinese'.A good book on this subject is Urs Ramseyer--"Art and Craft of Bali".

In its application to the keris, the true "tourist quality" keris is a piece of flat iron, with or without painted on pamor.

Any keris that has a traditionally produced blade, whether old, recent, or brand new, is not able to be classified as "tourist". These keris are all a part of a continuing tradition.However, in the case of the keris under discussion, the blade is culturally correct, the dress is not.

David (mod) is absolutely correct when he says that this beautifully carved dress is not culturally correct. This is a product produced for visitors to Bali. However, Balinese men do not always wear culturally correct keris. The photo here was taken in 2007 on the eve of Hari Nyepi, in Kuta.Note the type of keris being worn.

Again David (mod) is correct when he says that the quality of the hilt of the keris under discussion is not particularly good, however, to replace it with a modern, well carved hilt could well cost more than the rest of the keris cost.

13th August 2008, 01:23 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I don't think this form of dress was ever used in dances in Bali, except possibly in the dances specifically staged for tourists, as remarked by Henk. I do not know exactly when this form of dress began to appear, but I have never seen any that I could estimate a pre-WWII age for. In the late 1960's I don't think I saw any of this dress around, but it did seem to become fairly prevalent during the 1970's. The early ones used old blades, and there were some pretty decent blades in some of them, but later ones did only use flat iron, with painted on pamor.In recent years I have not seen these in Bali, and I think they may not be being made any longer, which makes this form a worthwhile part of a collection. On the subject of "tourist quality". In Bali there is a very wide range of quality that is available to tourists. Some is superb art, specifically produced for tourist consumption. Some is absolute junk. Virtually all of the craft and art that we presently identify as "Balinese" is the product of the influence of European artists who went to live in Bali in the late pre-WWII period. The original Balinese art was and is not nearly so refined and not nearly so attractive to the western taste as is the type of thing that we are accustomed to identifying as "Balinese'.A good book on this subject is Urs Ramseyer--"Art and Craft of Bali". In its application to the keris, the true "tourist quality" keris is a piece of flat iron, with or without painted on pamor. Any keris that has a traditionally produced blade, whether old, recent, or brand new, is not able to be classified as "tourist". These keris are all a part of a continuing tradition.However, in the case of the keris under discussion, the blade is culturally correct, the dress is not. David (mod) is absolutely correct when he says that this beautifully carved dress is not culturally correct. This is a product produced for visitors to Bali. However, Balinese men do not always wear culturally correct keris. The photo here was taken in 2007 on the eve of Hari Nyepi, in Kuta.Note the type of keris being worn. Again David (mod) is correct when he says that the quality of the hilt of the keris under discussion is not particularly good, however, to replace it with a modern, well carved hilt could well cost more than the rest of the keris cost. Attached Images

12th August 2008, 02:37 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	You know, theoretically plastic jewels are just fine in Bali art work. All the texts tell us that in Bali art the important thing is the final effect,not the value of the materials used to achieve that effect, this is the reason that you will not infrequently find diamonds and rubies mixed up with glass in court pieces. So, if you need to use a bit of plastic to achieve that final effect, does it matter? My guess is that it does not matter to the Balinese, although we might find it a bit off-putting. But they don't really have to please us bules, do they?

12th August 2008, 06:41 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you very much for all your replies Sorry lemmythesmith for 'pipping you at the post' It was the blade's obvious pamor and the nicely carved hilt that attracted me. I wanted at least one to add to my collection. (mind you, I said that when I obtained a Dha ...and now I have two ) Should I be alittle disappointed that this is in 'tourist dress' ? Hopefully, the jewels are not 'semi-precious' plastic But having said that, plastic strips were highly prized by a number of African tribes, due to its scarcity. Thanks A. G. Maisey for the 'hint' about the price I paid, its nice to know I didn't pay over the odds. When I receive it I will post better pictures and discription. Kind Regards David

12th August 2008, 08:44 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi David , thanks for the 'enlightenment', I actually quite like the 'dress' as it is......its the word 'tourist' ...it always gives me the impression of 'poor quality', souvenir wallhangers....which this one does not seem to be. I have seen some 'tourist quality' keris before, these had thin blades and poorly carved hilts ...so please excuse my knee jerk reaction to the word.. 'tourist' Regards David PS You are probably right, I can see this one being the first...of a few

12th August 2008, 09:20 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hi David. I was making no attempts at "enlightenment" here, just merely responding to your question. There is a reason that i use the word "tourist" in quotation marks. It is not a word i like using simply because it carries a lot of preconceived ideas with it. I don't mean it as a gauge for quality levels. I am just trying to point out that from a cultural perspective this type of dress is not what a Balinese man would general use for his personal keris. I would be interested to know more of the history of this sheath form if anybody knows it, whether it was developed just for the tourist trade or if there is some credence to the idea that they may have been used in traditional theater. Again, the blade itself is certainly not of "tourist" quality. As for hilts though i would have to say that this is a fairly low level of carving for this particular hilt form. I have often seen old blades like this turn up in this style dress. I have always just figured that someone used what was cheap and available so that they could market the keris without to much of an investment involved. I have a nice one in a variation of this sheath form. It too is a decent carving like yours and the keris fits it perfectly so i kept it and just replaced the hilt with something nicer.

12th August 2008, 10:13 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, At least you are lucky finding a real keris blade in this keris. I saw this one to on ebay. I think as Alan pointed out that the carving isn't so bad on this one. These type of keris vary from a rather nice carved example with a real blade to a very quickly carved dress with a cut out blade from a sheet of metal with painted pamor. This is certainly tourist stuff. If you're lucky the precious jewels are glass beads. These kind of keris are used in barong dances, also performed for tourists. I can imagine that during these performances this kind of keris are sold to the public.