contrast in pamor

sjors · 21st July 2008, 02:30 PM

Most pictures of the pamor I see on the keris Bali here show a bright pamor with a lot of contrast.
One of mine, an ordinairy keris Bali I have for about 25 years now, doesn't have that bright pamor and never had during that time.
Does that mean it has to be stained again or do I have to leave it that way?

ganjawulung · 21st July 2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjors

One of mine, an ordinairy keris Bali I have for about 25 years now, doesn't have that bright pamor and never had during that time.
Does that mean it has to be stained again or do I have to leave it that way?

Dear Sjors,
IMHO, your keris needs not to be stained, but just need to be cleaned. (With very soft brush and soft cream detergent, dry it with soft cloth and then oil it with keris oil).

Actually, it is a simple but perfect balinese keris: the good (timoho wood) sheath, especially the "kendhit" hilt (mystical one...), simple but good keris ring, and of course a simple but perfect blade... Glittering pamor, is not always better...

Rick · 21st July 2008, 06:21 PM

That is a beautiful rendition of that hilt form .

David · 21st July 2008, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

That is a beautiful rendition of that hilt form .

I agree. Wouldn't mind some better pics.

On your question, well yes, this keris is somewhat out of stain, so to speak. Still, finding someone to give it the proper Bali treatment might be a bit difficult. For the time being you might just want to keep it oiled.
Might just be the pics, but it looks like the very beginnings of rust might be starting up in the sogakan. Might just be dirt. Either way, a good oiling couldn't hurt.
BTW, the blade is very nice as well. Nice and deeply carved.

A. G. Maisey · 21st July 2008, 10:48 PM

An old Bali keris with its original stain, is something that should be preserved as is.

Even if that stain has deteriorated a little, it still should be kept original.

In my experience, it is now impossible to get an authentic Bali clean and stain job done in Bali, by Balinese. It seems that everybody I talk to sends their blades away to Jawa or Madura to have them done. The result is a lot different to an authentic Bali stain. This has been the case for many years. I think it is likely that this keris was stained pre-WWII.

I have stained blades using the Balinese methods, and the work involved is many times the work involved for a Javanese stain.

This keris should be preserved exactly as it is. It is a very good example of an old Bali keris; it is not a top quality piece, but it is a good keris, and a very scarce commodity.

My advice on cleaning would vary a little from Pak Gonjo's advice.

Remove the hilt and hilt ring. Using hot water, a soft toothbrush , and dishwash detergent, thoroughly clean and rinse the blade. Dry with a soft, lint free cloth, follow this by drying with a hairdryer, then drench with WD40, and allow to stand overnight before applying a good oil. Traditional, coconut based, keris oil should be avoided for this type of blade. If you want a scented oil, make your own from medicinal paraffin and sandalwood oil; if the scent is not important to you, use a good quality gun oil. When the blade has been oiled, store it in a plastic sleeve, or wrap with plastic lunch wrap. It should not be put straight back into the wood wrongko. Ferric material against cellulose material is guaranteed to eventually cause corrosion, and in the case of this keris, preservation and conservation should be prioritised.

After this initial treatment, you might like to consider coming back to the blade in a few weeks, and using magnification and a strong light, carefully remove any active rust from the blade. Needles of various sizes are good for this job, and the most useful is a small saddler's needle mounted in an awl.You need to work pit by pit.

Forget all about any restaining. This keris is beautiful just the way it is.

asomotif · 22nd July 2008, 12:39 AM

Sjors,

Agree with all the previous speakers. Do not restain.

I wish I could find a keris like yours nowadays.

In case you get bored with it, you can PM me

PenangsangII · 22nd July 2008, 05:00 AM

Alan, can the cleaning techniques be applied to other than balinese keris, say Javanese or Buginese or even Peninsula kerises. Will it get the same optimum effect?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2008, 05:34 AM

No, you cannot change the nature of the material by using a different clean/stain technique, nor can you undo erosion to the surface by using the Balinese clean technique.

In very simple terms, the Balinese cleaning process is to a large degree mechanical, in that the blade is polished before it is stained, it is not just soaked in acid a la Javanese blades.The polished surface allows a cleaner definition between dark and light colour areas, which creates the impression of high contrast.

If you took a Javanese blade that had its surface eroded, and repolished it to a Balinese type surface, you would see a similar effect to the finish on a Balinese blade---but you might lose the lighter coloured pamor material along the way.

However, I repeat:- you cannot change the nature of the material. If the material is grey on grey, it will still be grey on grey after it is repolished.

sjors · 22nd July 2008, 06:08 AM

Gentlemen,

thank you for your elaborate answers. You made one thing very clear to me: no restaining !

Dear Ganjawulung and Mr. Maisey: thank you for your advices about the cleaning process.

@ asomotif: I'm afraid this keris is gonna stay a little bit longer at its present home

pakana · 22nd July 2008, 07:16 AM

Alan,

it's a question that maybe its a silly one but, when I clean my keris I don't clean the peksi as well. I just hold the keris from the hilt, and clean it. Is it a huge mistake?

george

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2008, 09:15 AM

What sort of cleaning are we talking about George?

Just a light maintenance clean, or a thorough clean preceding a stain that you expect to last for a very long time?

In any case, if it involves anything more than just a light brushing, it is best to demount the blade.

sjors · 22nd July 2008, 10:15 AM

Dear David,

I am pleased to be able to reassure you. It is not rust but dirt in the sogakan, (and a lot of it

)
regards, sjors

pakana · 22nd July 2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What sort of cleaning are we talking about George?

Just a light maintenance clean, or a thorough clean preceding a stain that you expect to last for a very long time?

In any case, if it involves anything more than just a light brushing, it is best to demount the blade.

Hi Alan,

I was reffering to a simple cleaning with a toothbrush, and some soap, to get rid of the excess oil on the blade, and maybe to bright a little more the blade. Then oil it, and store it. Is it nesessery to clean the peksi too, and then oil it? I guess yes, but what do you think?

George

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2008, 11:39 PM

George, for any cleaning involving soap and water, I would most definitely remove the hilt, not because I think the pesi should be cleaned, but to ensure that the top of the gonjo was properly cleaned, and that the hilt and mendak were not damaged by the water.

It is a very minor thing to remove and replace a hilt. Yes, if the hilt is a long term fixture, and has been put in place with jabung, or shellac, or is rusted tight, it can be a major thing to remove it, but if that is the case, the blade probably needs more than a light clean anyway.

Speaking for myself, if I find it necessary to really give a blade a good clean, I use mineral turpentine, not soap and water, however, you need a degree of experience to be able gauge the effect of the turps on the stain:- with some recently applied commercial stains, the turps can lighten or remove the colour in the blade.

In any case, why would one wish to remove excess oil on a blade by washing?

All I ever do is pat it dry and redistribute it with a dry toothbrush.I almost never use soap and water on a blade, and when I do it is invariably followed by a WD40 drench.

21st July 2008, 02:30 PM	#1
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	contrast in pamor Most pictures of the pamor I see on the keris Bali here show a bright pamor with a lot of contrast. One of mine, an ordinairy keris Bali I have for about 25 years now, doesn't have that bright pamor and never had during that time. Does that mean it has to be stained again or do I have to leave it that way? Attached Images

21st July 2008, 06:21 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,288	That is a beautiful rendition of that hilt form .

21st July 2008, 10:48 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,859	An old Bali keris with its original stain, is something that should be preserved as is. Even if that stain has deteriorated a little, it still should be kept original. In my experience, it is now impossible to get an authentic Bali clean and stain job done in Bali, by Balinese. It seems that everybody I talk to sends their blades away to Jawa or Madura to have them done. The result is a lot different to an authentic Bali stain. This has been the case for many years. I think it is likely that this keris was stained pre-WWII. I have stained blades using the Balinese methods, and the work involved is many times the work involved for a Javanese stain. This keris should be preserved exactly as it is. It is a very good example of an old Bali keris; it is not a top quality piece, but it is a good keris, and a very scarce commodity. My advice on cleaning would vary a little from Pak Gonjo's advice. Remove the hilt and hilt ring. Using hot water, a soft toothbrush , and dishwash detergent, thoroughly clean and rinse the blade. Dry with a soft, lint free cloth, follow this by drying with a hairdryer, then drench with WD40, and allow to stand overnight before applying a good oil. Traditional, coconut based, keris oil should be avoided for this type of blade. If you want a scented oil, make your own from medicinal paraffin and sandalwood oil; if the scent is not important to you, use a good quality gun oil. When the blade has been oiled, store it in a plastic sleeve, or wrap with plastic lunch wrap. It should not be put straight back into the wood wrongko. Ferric material against cellulose material is guaranteed to eventually cause corrosion, and in the case of this keris, preservation and conservation should be prioritised. After this initial treatment, you might like to consider coming back to the blade in a few weeks, and using magnification and a strong light, carefully remove any active rust from the blade. Needles of various sizes are good for this job, and the most useful is a small saddler's needle mounted in an awl.You need to work pit by pit. Forget all about any restaining. This keris is beautiful just the way it is.

22nd July 2008, 12:39 AM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Sjors, Agree with all the previous speakers. Do not restain. I wish I could find a keris like yours nowadays. In case you get bored with it, you can PM me

22nd July 2008, 05:00 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Alan, can the cleaning techniques be applied to other than balinese keris, say Javanese or Buginese or even Peninsula kerises. Will it get the same optimum effect?

22nd July 2008, 05:34 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,859	No, you cannot change the nature of the material by using a different clean/stain technique, nor can you undo erosion to the surface by using the Balinese clean technique. In very simple terms, the Balinese cleaning process is to a large degree mechanical, in that the blade is polished before it is stained, it is not just soaked in acid a la Javanese blades.The polished surface allows a cleaner definition between dark and light colour areas, which creates the impression of high contrast. If you took a Javanese blade that had its surface eroded, and repolished it to a Balinese type surface, you would see a similar effect to the finish on a Balinese blade---but you might lose the lighter coloured pamor material along the way. However, I repeat:- you cannot change the nature of the material. If the material is grey on grey, it will still be grey on grey after it is repolished.

22nd July 2008, 06:08 AM	#9
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Gentlemen, thank you for your elaborate answers. You made one thing very clear to me: no restaining ! Dear Ganjawulung and Mr. Maisey: thank you for your advices about the cleaning process. @ asomotif: I'm afraid this keris is gonna stay a little bit longer at its present home

22nd July 2008, 07:16 AM	#10
pakana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 74	Alan, it's a question that maybe its a silly one but, when I clean my keris I don't clean the peksi as well. I just hold the keris from the hilt, and clean it. Is it a huge mistake? george

22nd July 2008, 09:15 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,859	What sort of cleaning are we talking about George? Just a light maintenance clean, or a thorough clean preceding a stain that you expect to last for a very long time? In any case, if it involves anything more than just a light brushing, it is best to demount the blade.

22nd July 2008, 10:15 AM	#12
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Dear David, I am pleased to be able to reassure you. It is not rust but dirt in the sogakan, (and a lot of it ) regards, sjors

22nd July 2008, 11:39 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,859	George, for any cleaning involving soap and water, I would most definitely remove the hilt, not because I think the pesi should be cleaned, but to ensure that the top of the gonjo was properly cleaned, and that the hilt and mendak were not damaged by the water. It is a very minor thing to remove and replace a hilt. Yes, if the hilt is a long term fixture, and has been put in place with jabung, or shellac, or is rusted tight, it can be a major thing to remove it, but if that is the case, the blade probably needs more than a light clean anyway. Speaking for myself, if I find it necessary to really give a blade a good clean, I use mineral turpentine, not soap and water, however, you need a degree of experience to be able gauge the effect of the turps on the stain:- with some recently applied commercial stains, the turps can lighten or remove the colour in the blade. In any case, why would one wish to remove excess oil on a blade by washing? All I ever do is pat it dry and redistribute it with a dry toothbrush.I almost never use soap and water on a blade, and when I do it is invariably followed by a WD40 drench.