Barung --- Origin?

Maurice · 16th July 2008, 08:10 AM

Does this MOP inlay in the kakatua pommel tells something about the origin? I read in Cato's book (page 38) that shape likes (ivory or bone) were especially popular with the moros who inhabited the southern-most islands of the Sulu Archipelago.
Does this imply my barong is coming possibly from the same area?

Does those silver bandings and braided silver wire banding tells something about the area where it comes from? Or was this combination of braided bandings found all over the Sulu archipelago?

Best Regards,
Maurice

David · 16th July 2008, 02:33 PM

Maurice, can we see the blade?

Dajak · 16th July 2008, 02:38 PM

Mooie Barong Maurice

Ben

VVV · 16th July 2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Mooie Barong Maurice

Ben

I like it too!

Michael

Maurice · 16th July 2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Maurice, can we see the blade?

I attach 2 more pics of the blade. When I got it there was a very beautiful yellowish\brownish pattern on the blade. But when I wanted to clean the blade a bit from some dirt, it was gone within split seconds. HIT ME !!!!!!!!!!
But the strange thing is, I never overclean my pieces.
I rubbed a few times and it was gone already.
It was my first blade with pattern and I didn't know it was gone so quickly!

IT was like a slap in the face, but I'm sure it will not happen to me again the next time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

Mooie Barong Maurice

Ben

Dank je Ben.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael

I like it too!

Michael

Thanks Michael.

Henk · 17th July 2008, 08:10 AM

Maurice,
Use vinegar to re-etch the blade.
Nice piece!!!

Dajak · 17th July 2008, 08:43 PM

Hi wacht ermee als je bij mij komt zal ik het laten zien hoe je zoiets doet .

Wait Maurice I can do it for you.

Ben

Maurice · 18th July 2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi wacht ermee als je bij mij komt zal ik het laten zien hoe je zoiets doet .

Wait Maurice I can do it for you.

Ben

Thanks for your offer Ben. After your divingvacation in Bali.

Maurice

Battara · 19th July 2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Does this MOP inlay in the kakatua pommel tells something about the origin? I read in Cato's book (page 38) that shape likes (ivory or bone) were especially popular with the moros who inhabited the southern-most islands of the Sulu Archipelago.
Does this imply my barong is coming possibly from the same area?

Does those silver bandings and braided silver wire banding tells something about the area where it comes from? Or was this combination of braided bandings found all over the Sulu archipelago?

Best Regards,
Maurice

HI Maurice,

Sorry to chime in so late. Yes this is from the Sulu region and it is a rare type according to Cato. IT probably belonged to a chieftain. Braided bands are all over the Sulu region, and seems to be missing a little bit of it. There was originally more of a top plume to the back and beak to the front. MOP usually indicates a later period, perhaps 1900 or later.

Maurice · 19th July 2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

HI Maurice,

Sorry to chime in so late. Yes this is from the Sulu region and it is a rare type according to Cato. IT probably belonged to a chieftain. Braided bands are all over the Sulu region, and seems to be missing a little bit of it. There was originally more of a top plume to the back and beak to the front. MOP usually indicates a later period, perhaps 1900 or later.

Hi Jose,

Thank you for replying.
You are very right about the plume and the beak. Those particular parts broke off there. But it must have been a small plume cause it looks like a true fighting barung.
So the MOP could be probably a latter addition to the pommel?

Maurice

Rick · 19th July 2008, 09:42 PM

This example shows fairly diminuitive beak and plume .

Battara · 20th July 2008, 12:58 AM

I would not place this necessarily as a fighting barong, though I do think the pommel could be a later addition. However, the back part is severly broken off and there may have been more originally to it than what we see......

Rick, nice example.....

Rick · 20th July 2008, 02:18 AM

I've always wanted to re-lime the carvings Jose .

Somehow it wouldn't be right I think .

I think the barung we are discussing had a larger beak and crest .

The way to possibly date that piece may lie in the details of the hilt .
Cato has some theories on dating barungs by hilt carving style in his book Moro Swords .

I've got a feeling this hilt may be 19thC. updated/refurbished in the 20th .

Battara · 20th July 2008, 04:30 AM

I would tend to agree on the piece in question.

On being a "limey" (

) I think that would be fine....

Below is my barong which is similar. The inlay is ivory. Notice the tail plume and the beak. I imagine that yours was similar.

Maurice · 20th July 2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

This example shows fairly diminuitive beak and plume .

Thanks Rick for showing that picture. I like the silver braided wire on yours above the silver ferrule. And your tagub is in better shape.

Maurice · 20th July 2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The way to possibly date that piece may lie in the details of the hilt .
Cato has some theories on dating barungs by hilt carving style in his book Moro Swords .

I've got a feeling this hilt may be 19thC. updated/refurbished in the 20th .

Could it be that the barung discussed has a very early use of MOP, or maybe the owner "pimped" his barung up later?
In the MOP you can see dots which probably holds the MOP. I don't know which material they are made of. Some have the colour of the wooden pommel (but more shiny) and other dots looks like MOP.

Maurice · 20th July 2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Below is my barong which is similar. The inlay is ivory. Notice the tail plume and the beak. I imagine that yours was similar.

That is a lovely piece. I thinks mine could look the same when the owner was not such a fierce fighter and broke of the beak and plume.

Such sort of kakatua also is depicted in the book of Cato page 38. Only I like yours more with those nice dots in the pommel, Jose.

Mine does also has dots, only they are in the middle of the MOP triangles with function of detaching the MOP to the pommel and not for decoration like yours I think.

kai · 20th July 2008, 10:08 AM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

Yes this is from the Sulu region

Can we narrow it down to one of the ethnic groups within the Sulu sultanate sphere of influence? Would the possibly early use of MOP point to a Samal origin?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 20th July 2008, 10:15 AM

Hello Maurice,

Quote:

In the MOP you can see dots which probably holds the MOP. I don't know which material they are made of. Some have the colour of the wooden pommel (but more shiny) and other dots looks like MOP.

I'd agree that the wooden pins are for attaching the MOP as well as being decorative...

Noticeably lighter pins would probably be bone, I guess. Repairs?

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th July 2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Thanks Rick for showing that picture. I like the silver braided wire on yours above the silver ferrule. And your tagub is in better shape.

Hi Maurice, that is not woven silver wire; it's cord (for good grip) that seems to have been coated with green lac of some sort .

Maurice · 20th July 2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'd agree that the wooden pins are for attaching the MOP as well as decorative...

Noticeably lighter pins would probably be bone, I guess. Repairs?

Hello Kai,

You are very right about the lighter pins. It is bone cause it is more yellow than the more white MOP-colour......I think the time has come to get me readingglasses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Maurice, that is not woven silver wire; it's cord (for good grip) that seems to have been coated with green lac of some sort .

Hello Rick,

I gave it a better look and I see what you mean. Again as I mentioned before.....readingglasses??

kronckew · 20th July 2008, 06:32 PM

the MOP shapes fastened on a wooden pin or post must be a common moro decorative technique:

Kris hilt

Maurice · 20th July 2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the MOP shapes fastened on a wooden pin or post must be a common moro decorative technique:
Kris hilt

Tnx for the picture !

kai · 20th July 2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

the MOP shapes fastened on a wooden pin or post must be a common moro decorative technique

Yup. It's the traditional way to attach halves of scabbards and other parts like pommels so it's bound to be also utilized in other/later applications.

MOP is too brittle so pins must be made from other materials.

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 20th July 2008, 11:04 PM

Kai to answer your question, mine is probably Tausug. I suspect that Maurice's is also based on the curve of the upper tail part (what's left) and the curve of the beak. Yakans are completely different and Samal are shorter and more abrupt in the okir. The only other possibility might be Tawi-Tawi or even (though more remotely) Borneo Moros.

One other note, I don't think this is a fighter piece. Ususally fighter's are not as ornately decorated due to battle conditions but are plainer.

On my tagub, it was originally in pieces - I had to do a lot of restoration in putting all the pieces together and even carving new parts to match. Below is a picture of the scabbard before I repaired it:

Rick · 20th July 2008, 11:30 PM

That would probably make this one Tausug too ?

Lord I miss the late 90's on eBay .

Battara · 21st July 2008, 12:13 AM

Rick, your's might be although I might be inclined to say early Samal influence due to the type of okir design used on the tagub and angle of the top of the pommel, I'd have to look up some resources before I am sure.

Nice to have a complete piece, especially the tagub since these were either thrown away by later owners or broken to bits.....

Rick · 21st July 2008, 01:59 AM

I notice that the tip of the tagub is smaller than the other examples shown .
Different carving style then ?

Jose, got a recipe for the lime mix ?

I've got a few chunks of garden lime .

Battara · 3rd August 2008, 07:57 PM

You know Rick, I was perusing through the archives, doing some research, when I bumped into this thread again. Mixture for lime? - no except that you make it thick, fill it in, and clean off the excess. I sometimes use chalk dust since I don't have lime (only lemons

).

Maurice · 3rd August 2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

You know Rick, I was perusing through the archives, doing some research, when I bumped into this thread again. Mixture for lime? - no except that you make it thick, fill it in, and clean off the excess. I sometimes use chalk dust since I don't have lime (only lemons

).

Thanks Jose bringing up this thread again!

That reminds me that I forgot to post the pics of the etched blade my barong.
I used vinigar on this one. Lemons were sold !

16th July 2008, 08:10 AM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,342	Barung --- Origin? Does this MOP inlay in the kakatua pommel tells something about the origin? I read in Cato's book (page 38) that shape likes (ivory or bone) were especially popular with the moros who inhabited the southern-most islands of the Sulu Archipelago. Does this imply my barong is coming possibly from the same area? Does those silver bandings and braided silver wire banding tells something about the area where it comes from? Or was this combination of braided bandings found all over the Sulu archipelago? Best Regards, Maurice Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 16th July 2008 at 09:03 AM.

19th July 2008, 09:42 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	This example shows fairly diminuitive beak and plume . Attached Images

20th July 2008, 04:30 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I would tend to agree on the piece in question. On being a "limey" ( ) I think that would be fine.... Below is my barong which is similar. The inlay is ivory. Notice the tail plume and the beak. I imagine that yours was similar. Attached Images

20th July 2008, 11:04 PM	#25
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Kai to answer your question, mine is probably Tausug. I suspect that Maurice's is also based on the curve of the upper tail part (what's left) and the curve of the beak. Yakans are completely different and Samal are shorter and more abrupt in the okir. The only other possibility might be Tawi-Tawi or even (though more remotely) Borneo Moros. One other note, I don't think this is a fighter piece. Ususally fighter's are not as ornately decorated due to battle conditions but are plainer. On my tagub, it was originally in pieces - I had to do a lot of restoration in putting all the pieces together and even carving new parts to match. Below is a picture of the scabbard before I repaired it: Attached Images

20th July 2008, 11:30 PM	#26
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	That would probably make this one Tausug too ? Lord I miss the late 90's on eBay . Attached Images

16th July 2008, 02:33 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	Maurice, can we see the blade?

16th July 2008, 02:38 PM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Mooie Barong Maurice Ben

17th July 2008, 08:10 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Maurice, Use vinegar to re-etch the blade. Nice piece!!!

17th July 2008, 08:43 PM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi wacht ermee als je bij mij komt zal ik het laten zien hoe je zoiets doet . Wait Maurice I can do it for you. Ben

20th July 2008, 12:58 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I would not place this necessarily as a fighting barong, though I do think the pommel could be a later addition. However, the back part is severly broken off and there may have been more originally to it than what we see...... Rick, nice example.....

20th July 2008, 02:18 AM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	I've always wanted to re-lime the carvings Jose . Somehow it wouldn't be right I think . I think the barung we are discussing had a larger beak and crest . The way to possibly date that piece may lie in the details of the hilt . Cato has some theories on dating barungs by hilt carving style in his book Moro Swords . I've got a feeling this hilt may be 19thC. updated/refurbished in the 20th .

20th July 2008, 06:32 PM	#22
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	the MOP shapes fastened on a wooden pin or post must be a common moro decorative technique: Kris hilt

21st July 2008, 12:13 AM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Rick, your's might be although I might be inclined to say early Samal influence due to the type of okir design used on the tagub and angle of the top of the pommel, I'd have to look up some resources before I am sure. Nice to have a complete piece, especially the tagub since these were either thrown away by later owners or broken to bits.....

21st July 2008, 01:59 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Samal I notice that the tip of the tagub is smaller than the other examples shown . Different carving style then ? Jose, got a recipe for the lime mix ? I've got a few chunks of garden lime .

3rd August 2008, 07:57 PM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	You know Rick, I was perusing through the archives, doing some research, when I bumped into this thread again. Mixture for lime? - no except that you make it thick, fill it in, and clean off the excess. I sometimes use chalk dust since I don't have lime (only lemons ).