Ideas on these 3 pieces?

G. McCormack · 6th May 2008, 09:11 PM

A few recent internet purchases. I can of course take some more pics.

The first dagger has a laminated blade, good steel, well cut fullers, inlaid copper-alloy dots, and a plain wooden handle. I'm at a bit of a loss...my best guesses would be similar to a khodmi or genoui? Or something else similar from North Africa?

This short sword is some sort of S.E.A. parang, I'd guess, but after that I'm not sure. Lovely laminated blade has been shortened, and overall has the appearances of a cut down Japanese sword..but I rather think its not. White brass or nickle-silver handle, hardwood scabbard with a few rattan wraps left. It appears there was more to the scabbard that has been lost.

A smallish Phillipine knife of sorts, this third piece is well made but simple, and has I'm nearly certain a carved oak handle. Maybe part of a European crate or something? Forgewelded iron collar.

Any insights would of course be appreciated!

Rick · 6th May 2008, 09:48 PM

Does the little chopper have a chisel grind edge ?

G. McCormack · 7th May 2008, 06:08 AM

Nope, the little chopper is very light, convex edge, and I suspect it was forged out of a piece of saw blade or other thinnish stock. The edge was filed in, and the flats of the blade weren't even drawfiled, rather they were left covered in firescale, which is visible through the thick rust. There is some distal taper from forging it out, but the spine at the ricasso is only about 2mm wide.

I see chisel grinds on WWII era talibons from Luzon, but does a chisel grind on something from this part of the world signify a cultural group generally?

Royston · 7th May 2008, 12:26 PM

I have no idea on the first one.

Second looks like a sikin blade.

Third blade looks more like the small Balinese sacrificial knifes.

Royston

RhysMichael · 7th May 2008, 03:20 PM

The middle looks indonesian to me also though I would not call it a sikin. If I had to guess I would say Java though it may be Sumatra. So I guess generically I would call it a parang also Look at pg 134 in Von zonneveld, I think the chopper below it may be indonesian also

some similar ones to the middle on Artzi's site
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2858
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2609
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=533

G. McCormack · 7th May 2008, 06:30 PM

Thanks for the comments so far.

I just ordered a copy of the von Zonneveld book...looks like something I should have!

Rick · 7th May 2008, 09:49 PM

Yes indeedy .

Yeah, the little chopper struck me as Indonesian.
The profile of the blade tip reminds me very much of the shape of a Toa though just a little stubbier .

RhysMichael · 7th May 2008, 11:11 PM

A similar Java sword in the National Museum of Ethnology, Leiden

VVV · 8th May 2008, 10:51 AM

The Golok, #2, is usually found on Java but they could also be found among Bugis in south Sulawesi (Celebes) and among Malay in Kalimantan (Indonesian part of Borneo). Yours has a very atypical scabbard which might be an indication of that it's from outside Java (the one from Leiden is with the usual scabbard)? Or maybe a collector has combined them later (do they fit well together)? It resembles slightly a scabbard from the Murut tribe (Sabah, NW Borneo) which is strange as this kind of golok isn't usually found there?
The small chopper, #3, looks most probable like a Sumatran utility knife, based on the hilt and blade shape. But it could maybe also be from Borneo Malays (including the Malaysian part of Borneo) or Peninsular Malaysia?

Michael

G. McCormack · 9th May 2008, 08:23 PM

Great info! I knew there had to be some other precedents for the handle styling on the parang/golok, its great to look at those similar pieces you guys posted. Collectively, this forum always impresses!

btw, the blade on the parang does fit the scabbard well, I feel sure it was made for it.

Now if only anyone recognizes the first little knife I posted! Let me take some better pictures and get them up on here

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2008, 09:41 PM

I wonder perhaps the small knife may be Chinese, Mongolian, Tibetan?

G. McCormack · 10th May 2008, 12:41 AM

Okay, here are some more pics of this small dagger. It measures 11 inches (28cm) overall, and the spine at the ricasso measures 3/16" wide (5mm)

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2008, 10:27 AM

Looks like Chinese influence to me.

G. McCormack · 11th May 2008, 09:08 PM

Aye, the fullers and inlaid dots made me think that too. But the form, pommel, and filework on the spine don't lead me in any specific direction, really. Perhaps someone has one similar, somewhere.

CharlesS · 11th May 2008, 10:21 PM

...those stacked pommel ornaments on the dagger look awfully Tuareg(only because of the material and the way they are stacked), but none of the est does. The fullering seems more akin to Turkish or maybe Indo-Persian work.

Intersting.

Mark · 12th May 2008, 03:41 PM

As usual, all questions are answered by referring to dha.

Note copper dot inserts on blades:

Note spine decoration:

6th May 2008, 09:11 PM	#1
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Ideas on these 3 pieces? A few recent internet purchases. I can of course take some more pics. The first dagger has a laminated blade, good steel, well cut fullers, inlaid copper-alloy dots, and a plain wooden handle. I'm at a bit of a loss...my best guesses would be similar to a khodmi or genoui? Or something else similar from North Africa? This short sword is some sort of S.E.A. parang, I'd guess, but after that I'm not sure. Lovely laminated blade has been shortened, and overall has the appearances of a cut down Japanese sword..but I rather think its not. White brass or nickle-silver handle, hardwood scabbard with a few rattan wraps left. It appears there was more to the scabbard that has been lost. A smallish Phillipine knife of sorts, this third piece is well made but simple, and has I'm nearly certain a carved oak handle. Maybe part of a European crate or something? Forgewelded iron collar. Any insights would of course be appreciated! Attached Images

7th May 2008, 12:26 PM	#4
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Ideas on these 3 pieces? I have no idea on the first one. Second looks like a sikin blade. Third blade looks more like the small Balinese sacrificial knifes. Royston

7th May 2008, 03:20 PM	#5
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	The middle looks indonesian to me also though I would not call it a sikin. If I had to guess I would say Java though it may be Sumatra. So I guess generically I would call it a parang also Look at pg 134 in Von zonneveld, I think the chopper below it may be indonesian also some similar ones to the middle on Artzi's site http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2858 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2609 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=533 Last edited by RhysMichael; 7th May 2008 at 03:34 PM.

7th May 2008, 09:49 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yes indeedy . Yeah, the little chopper struck me as Indonesian. The profile of the blade tip reminds me very much of the shape of a Toa though just a little stubbier . Attached Images

7th May 2008, 11:11 PM	#8
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	A similar Java sword in the National Museum of Ethnology, Leiden Attached Images

6th May 2008, 09:48 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Does the little chopper have a chisel grind edge ?

7th May 2008, 06:08 AM	#3
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Nope, the little chopper is very light, convex edge, and I suspect it was forged out of a piece of saw blade or other thinnish stock. The edge was filed in, and the flats of the blade weren't even drawfiled, rather they were left covered in firescale, which is visible through the thick rust. There is some distal taper from forging it out, but the spine at the ricasso is only about 2mm wide. I see chisel grinds on WWII era talibons from Luzon, but does a chisel grind on something from this part of the world signify a cultural group generally?

7th May 2008, 06:30 PM	#6
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Thanks for the comments so far. I just ordered a copy of the von Zonneveld book...looks like something I should have!

8th May 2008, 10:51 AM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The Golok, #2, is usually found on Java but they could also be found among Bugis in south Sulawesi (Celebes) and among Malay in Kalimantan (Indonesian part of Borneo). Yours has a very atypical scabbard which might be an indication of that it's from outside Java (the one from Leiden is with the usual scabbard)? Or maybe a collector has combined them later (do they fit well together)? It resembles slightly a scabbard from the Murut tribe (Sabah, NW Borneo) which is strange as this kind of golok isn't usually found there? The small chopper, #3, looks most probable like a Sumatran utility knife, based on the hilt and blade shape. But it could maybe also be from Borneo Malays (including the Malaysian part of Borneo) or Peninsular Malaysia? Michael

9th May 2008, 08:23 PM	#10
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Great info! I knew there had to be some other precedents for the handle styling on the parang/golok, its great to look at those similar pieces you guys posted. Collectively, this forum always impresses! btw, the blade on the parang does fit the scabbard well, I feel sure it was made for it. Now if only anyone recognizes the first little knife I posted! Let me take some better pictures and get them up on here

9th May 2008, 09:41 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I wonder perhaps the small knife may be Chinese, Mongolian, Tibetan?

10th May 2008, 12:41 AM	#12
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	more info! Okay, here are some more pics of this small dagger. It measures 11 inches (28cm) overall, and the spine at the ricasso measures 3/16" wide (5mm) Attached Images

10th May 2008, 10:27 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks like Chinese influence to me.

11th May 2008, 09:08 PM	#14
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Aye, the fullers and inlaid dots made me think that too. But the form, pommel, and filework on the spine don't lead me in any specific direction, really. Perhaps someone has one similar, somewhere.

11th May 2008, 10:21 PM	#15
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	...those stacked pommel ornaments on the dagger look awfully Tuareg(only because of the material and the way they are stacked), but none of the est does. The fullering seems more akin to Turkish or maybe Indo-Persian work. Intersting.

12th May 2008, 03:41 PM	#16
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	As usual, all questions are answered by referring to dha. Note copper dot inserts on blades: Note spine decoration: