Kurdistan dagger

TVV · 9th May 2008, 02:41 AM

Thank you so much, this is the kind of advice I was looking for.

ALEX · 9th May 2008, 10:40 AM

RSWORD, Thank you for a great sum-up. I've learned a lot from you in the past, and it continues - always appreciate your knowledge and comments.
I agree - the pattern is sham, and FeCl will be a best bet. Sometimes, especially when etching Sham - the surface may turn yellowish. Adding little Nital (2% Nitric Acid solution) to FeCl will help to avoid it.

Also, a great question from Gonzalo. Was wootz produced by Kurds in Kurdistan? Kurdistan was/is part of Iraq, but Kurds historically lived in Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria. and wootz ores were discovered in Persia as well as in Iraq, so my quess is that wootz blades were part of Persian trade, and the fittings were added as part of local "customising". Does anyone has any references/comments about this?
Good luck to all.

Gonzalo G · 14th May 2008, 02:40 AM

Alex, thank you very much for your comment.

Do you meant iron ores, since wootz a product made of iron, carbon and other igredients? I don´t have a map with the ancient iron ores sites distribution, but it would be interesting to have one and begin to make some inferences.
All my best

ALEX · 17th May 2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...Do you meant iron ores, since wootz a product made of iron, carbon and other igredients? I don´t have a map with the ancient iron ores sites distribution, but it would be interesting to have one and begin to make some inferences.
All my best

Gonzalo, let me venture a guess:

The common knowledge is that wootz ignots were exported from India to the Middle East. Damascus was a main arms production center in Syria, and Isfahan - in Persia. Isfahan in particular was well known to produce arms from locally mined iron ore, and wootz ignots from Khorossan area in Northwest Persia were mined and shipped to Isfahan and other production centers in Persia (the Khorossan is also a name of one of the wootz patterns – “Kara Khorossan” - a darker oilish pattern.)
I do not know if Persian wootz ignots were exported elsewhere, or if there were other ore sources in other regions, but perhaps it explains why Persian wootz is considered to be superior to Indian (and I know that some people will object to this theory, but be it a myth or legend – this notion has been around for a while, so it has to be a reason behing it

Lew · 17th May 2008, 08:52 PM

Alex

Wootz ingots were shippied as far as China and possibly Japan.

Lew

Jeff Pringle · 18th May 2008, 07:26 AM

I’d say definitely Japan, this article has photos of several types of imported steel (Nanbantetsu) from the late 1500 - early 1600s and kept in a shrine since, two of them look to be crucible product and have wootz-y chemistry, as far as reported in the article.
日本刀の鍛錬性に及ぼす南蛮鉄のリン含有量の影響
Effect of Phosphorus Content of Nanban-tetsu on Forgeability of Japanese Sword Making
鈴木卓夫
Suzuki Takuo
Vol.90, No.1(20040100) pp. 43-47
The Iron and Steel Institute of Japan (ISIJ) ISSN:00211575
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110001457670/en/
(no, I don’t read Japanese, fortunately the photos, figures and tables are in English)
Hyotan and koban in particular look like semi-processed wootz ingots.

The best references I’ve found for mining, sword making and trade info are “Persian Steel, The Tannivoli Collection” with quite a lot of info on metal trade and manufacture in Persia, and “Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking” the new translation of al Kindi’s 9th Century description of where and how various swords were made, he specifically mentions indigenous production of Khurasani swords; I think that is called Kurdistan now, NE Iraq.

Gonzalo G · 18th May 2008, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

I do not know if Persian wootz ignots were exported elsewhere, or if there were other ore sources in other regions, but perhaps it explains why Persian wootz is considered to be superior to Indian (and I know that some people will object to this theory, but be it a myth or legend – this notion has been around for a while, so it has to be a reason behing it

Please excuse me, Alex, and I expect not being making a big disgression, I did not understand the reason why persian wootz is considered superior to indian. It has been said that Damascus was importer, and latter producer of wootz. In relation with your beautiful khanjar, I was thinking if there are some reference to other centers of wootz production, though I see that you consider that the blade was a trade one from Persia, I´m sure for some good reason. I don´t have information about Kurdistan production of minerals and weapons, except for the khanjars I use to find on the web, and the wootz as a subject, is of great interest for me. If you can give me some orientation to this respect, I will appreciate it very much.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo G · 18th May 2008, 07:35 AM

Jeff, sorry, I was writting my post and I didn´t see yours. You have some good responses to my questions, thank you.
Regards

Gonzalo

Jeff Pringle · 18th May 2008, 08:58 AM

No problem, Gonzalo

My suspicion is that Persian wootz has the better reputation because it has a large scale grain and high contrast, so people can see you've got wootz from across the room, the Indian variety is less flashy. These days, we might just call all the large-grained stuff Persian even though we don't really know where it came from...

9th May 2008, 02:41 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,615	Thank you so much, this is the kind of advice I was looking for.

9th May 2008, 10:40 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	RSWORD, Thank you for a great sum-up. I've learned a lot from you in the past, and it continues - always appreciate your knowledge and comments. I agree - the pattern is sham, and FeCl will be a best bet. Sometimes, especially when etching Sham - the surface may turn yellowish. Adding little Nital (2% Nitric Acid solution) to FeCl will help to avoid it. Also, a great question from Gonzalo. Was wootz produced by Kurds in Kurdistan? Kurdistan was/is part of Iraq, but Kurds historically lived in Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria. and wootz ores were discovered in Persia as well as in Iraq, so my quess is that wootz blades were part of Persian trade, and the fittings were added as part of local "customising". Does anyone has any references/comments about this? Good luck to all.

14th May 2008, 02:40 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Alex, thank you very much for your comment. Do you meant iron ores, since wootz a product made of iron, carbon and other igredients? I don´t have a map with the ancient iron ores sites distribution, but it would be interesting to have one and begin to make some inferences. All my best

17th May 2008, 08:52 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Alex Wootz ingots were shippied as far as China and possibly Japan. Lew

18th May 2008, 07:26 AM	#6
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I’d say definitely Japan, this article has photos of several types of imported steel (Nanbantetsu) from the late 1500 - early 1600s and kept in a shrine since, two of them look to be crucible product and have wootz-y chemistry, as far as reported in the article. 日本刀の鍛錬性に及ぼす南蛮鉄のリン含有量の影響 Effect of Phosphorus Content of Nanban-tetsu on Forgeability of Japanese Sword Making 鈴木卓夫 Suzuki Takuo Vol.90, No.1(20040100) pp. 43-47 The Iron and Steel Institute of Japan (ISIJ) ISSN:00211575 http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110001457670/en/ (no, I don’t read Japanese, fortunately the photos, figures and tables are in English) Hyotan and koban in particular look like semi-processed wootz ingots. The best references I’ve found for mining, sword making and trade info are “Persian Steel, The Tannivoli Collection” with quite a lot of info on metal trade and manufacture in Persia, and “Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking” the new translation of al Kindi’s 9th Century description of where and how various swords were made, he specifically mentions indigenous production of Khurasani swords; I think that is called Kurdistan now, NE Iraq.

18th May 2008, 07:35 AM	#8
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jeff, sorry, I was writting my post and I didn´t see yours. You have some good responses to my questions, thank you. Regards Gonzalo

18th May 2008, 08:58 AM	#9
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	No problem, Gonzalo My suspicion is that Persian wootz has the better reputation because it has a large scale grain and high contrast, so people can see you've got wootz from across the room, the Indian variety is less flashy. These days, we might just call all the large-grained stuff Persian even though we don't really know where it came from...