South Indian katars

Jens Nordlunde · 21st March 2005, 09:24 PM

The katar on the picture is from Tanjore. What makes me wonder is, when the Indians exported so many ingots from south India, why were these blades not made of wootz?
Could it be, that the steel was wootz, but was heated so the pattern disappeared, or did they use another kind of steel?
If yes, why when they had plenty of wootz?

Andrew · 21st March 2005, 11:18 PM

Hi Jens. Normally, I would suggest that non-wootz was cheaper to produce. However, this katar exhibits exceptional workmanship, so cost seems an unlikely reason.

Is this an isolated instance, or are weapons from Tanjore typically not wootz?

RSWORD · 21st March 2005, 11:27 PM

I have found that with Katars they often would leave the wootz pattern in the fullering but the edges were often polished bright. In your example, I would not be surprised if the steel within the fullering turned out to be wootz and then the edges were polished bright. Since the deep fullers are a hard area to clean when the Katar receives a cleaning or polishing, I can see the wootz over a long period of time "fading" away.

Mare Rosu · 22nd March 2005, 12:27 AM

JENS;

I think RSWORD is right on this. Using your logic why would it NOT be wootz on this katar, as Andrew states it is a fine specimen for it not to be wootz.
I know heat will cause the pattern to be lost, which is why some folks reason that the blade of some daggers hilts are pinned, so that the blade smith would not use heat on the blade/hilt and consequently loose the pattern.
I think this is a question for Dr. Ann to tell us if their is a nondestructive test to see if it is wootz or not.

Is this from your collection? A very nice katar.

Gene

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd March 2005, 04:09 PM

Hi Andrew. You are probably right, that non-wootz blades was cheaper to make, but like you also write, that with the work put into making the katar, it does not make any sense to save a bit on the blade.
I cannot remember, ever to have seen one of these south Indian blades, with a lot of fullers having a wootz pattern.

RSword, what you describe is the katars with fever fullers, if any at all, often seen more to the north, where the middle of the blade is etched but the edges polished.
The type you describe is like the ones on the picture

.

Gene, I think the failing wootz pattern is due to the many fullers. You probably will not be able to see the wootz pattern very well, if at all if it is grey, with all the fullers, maybe it would even make the blade look strange.
I don’t know why it is so, but it is worth looking into, to se if there is a ‘pattern’.

As you can see, the side guards are decorated in steel ‘pearls’ and fish, which had a special symbolic meaning to them, the funny think is, that the fish have eyes on both the inner and outer side. Between the two cross guards you can see seven small wheels, and in each of the cross guards a steel ball is rolling. When you get ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’ by Robert Elgood, have a look on page 161 and read about the fish on page 134-5.

Ann Feuerbach · 22nd March 2005, 04:17 PM

Beautiful katar! Not all crucible steel will produce a pattern...due to carbon content, trace elements, solidification rate and forging. It is possible to polish and etch a small area and examine it under a microscope. In theory, if a wootz object is polished and etched we do not need to do anything but look at it under the microscope, however most objects have not been polished enough.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd March 2005, 10:31 PM

Yes Ann, I know, but I stand in a dilemma, should I really polish the blade up, or leave it as it is?
I have decided to leave it, although I have polished it quite a bit, as someone had treated it with acid, probably due to heavy rust. I would have been happier had he left it, then I would have cleaned it, but I am glad to say, that he left it to the blade, and did no harm to the hilt.
One thing important to notice is the ‘sound’ of a blade/hilt. It can tell you if it is forged or cast, but further more it can tell you if the blade is part broken, if you listen carefully enough. Try with some of your blades to hit them on wood or hard with a nail, and get used to the sound, suddenly you may find a blade with another sound – and this can be important, it can mean something –then look for the course to the different sound, and maybe you find, that something is not what you thought it was.

RSWORD · 22nd March 2005, 10:43 PM

Jens

Actually I was referring to the S Indian ones. I will have to dig up a picture of a Tanjore example that I had with similar fullering as your example but the wootz was quite vivid in the fullers and the edges were polished bright. I suspected the hand guard was also wootz but no pattern was visible there either. Let me dig around and find that and share a pic.

21st March 2005, 09:24 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	South Indian katars The katar on the picture is from Tanjore. What makes me wonder is, when the Indians exported so many ingots from south India, why were these blades not made of wootz? Could it be, that the steel was wootz, but was heated so the pattern disappeared, or did they use another kind of steel? If yes, why when they had plenty of wootz? Attached Images

22nd March 2005, 12:27 AM	#4
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Test For Wootz? JENS; I think RSWORD is right on this. Using your logic why would it NOT be wootz on this katar, as Andrew states it is a fine specimen for it not to be wootz. I know heat will cause the pattern to be lost, which is why some folks reason that the blade of some daggers hilts are pinned, so that the blade smith would not use heat on the blade/hilt and consequently loose the pattern. I think this is a question for Dr. Ann to tell us if their is a nondestructive test to see if it is wootz or not. Is this from your collection? A very nice katar. Gene

22nd March 2005, 04:09 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Andrew. You are probably right, that non-wootz blades was cheaper to make, but like you also write, that with the work put into making the katar, it does not make any sense to save a bit on the blade. I cannot remember, ever to have seen one of these south Indian blades, with a lot of fullers having a wootz pattern. RSword, what you describe is the katars with fever fullers, if any at all, often seen more to the north, where the middle of the blade is etched but the edges polished. The type you describe is like the ones on the picture. Gene, I think the failing wootz pattern is due to the many fullers. You probably will not be able to see the wootz pattern very well, if at all if it is grey, with all the fullers, maybe it would even make the blade look strange. I don’t know why it is so, but it is worth looking into, to se if there is a ‘pattern’. As you can see, the side guards are decorated in steel ‘pearls’ and fish, which had a special symbolic meaning to them, the funny think is, that the fish have eyes on both the inner and outer side. Between the two cross guards you can see seven small wheels, and in each of the cross guards a steel ball is rolling. When you get ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’ by Robert Elgood, have a look on page 161 and read about the fish on page 134-5. Attached Images

21st March 2005, 11:18 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Jens. Normally, I would suggest that non-wootz was cheaper to produce. However, this katar exhibits exceptional workmanship, so cost seems an unlikely reason. Is this an isolated instance, or are weapons from Tanjore typically not wootz?

21st March 2005, 11:27 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I have found that with Katars they often would leave the wootz pattern in the fullering but the edges were often polished bright. In your example, I would not be surprised if the steel within the fullering turned out to be wootz and then the edges were polished bright. Since the deep fullers are a hard area to clean when the Katar receives a cleaning or polishing, I can see the wootz over a long period of time "fading" away.

22nd March 2005, 04:17 PM	#6
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Beautiful katar! Not all crucible steel will produce a pattern...due to carbon content, trace elements, solidification rate and forging. It is possible to polish and etch a small area and examine it under a microscope. In theory, if a wootz object is polished and etched we do not need to do anything but look at it under the microscope, however most objects have not been polished enough.

22nd March 2005, 10:31 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Ann, I know, but I stand in a dilemma, should I really polish the blade up, or leave it as it is? I have decided to leave it, although I have polished it quite a bit, as someone had treated it with acid, probably due to heavy rust. I would have been happier had he left it, then I would have cleaned it, but I am glad to say, that he left it to the blade, and did no harm to the hilt. One thing important to notice is the ‘sound’ of a blade/hilt. It can tell you if it is forged or cast, but further more it can tell you if the blade is part broken, if you listen carefully enough. Try with some of your blades to hit them on wood or hard with a nail, and get used to the sound, suddenly you may find a blade with another sound – and this can be important, it can mean something –then look for the course to the different sound, and maybe you find, that something is not what you thought it was.

22nd March 2005, 10:43 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Jens Actually I was referring to the S Indian ones. I will have to dig up a picture of a Tanjore example that I had with similar fullering as your example but the wootz was quite vivid in the fullers and the edges were polished bright. I suspected the hand guard was also wootz but no pattern was visible there either. Let me dig around and find that and share a pic.