Questions About a Curious Kukri

[Conogre]

Thank you one and all.
I personally don't feel that a sword or knife has to be of premier quality or have been owned by a Sultan, maharaja or a Datu to be worthy of discussion, often exactly the opposite, with the "poorer" blades being the ones carried by the warriors and average tribesman that won or lost the conflicts.
I have leads to follow forever in this area now and a LOT more reading to do and appreciation to build.
Again, my sincere and humble thanks.
Mike

[spiral]

I totaly agree Conogre, I to try to find examples of peasents weapons / tools as well as kings.

I learn much from both types of examples, although I must admit my collection leans more to the military side of things so far.

Happy collecting!

regards,
Spiral

[sirupate]

For me the the fighting and workhorse blades hold the most interest, but at the same time I wouldn't turn down a high quality piece either

Cheers Simon

[Conogre]

Here's a link that I ran across that seems to be fairly authoritarian and with a lot of information that's concise and very readable.
http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gu...ri_history.htm

Hopefully, our specializing members and those with books on the subject will correct any innacuracies.
Mike

[spiral]

Well IMHO thats sounds a great recounting of the folklore of kukri.

If you realy want to look for inaccuracies in it, The 12 or 13 inch length mentioned seems strange unless they mean some of the kukri of ww1 or 2, with that type blade length.

current British forces kukri blade length is 11 in. . obviously O/A is more.{16in.}

I have heard the "shake your head story" as originaly bieng about a 1920 Missisipi straight razor man, which to me sounds more likly, even with the adrenaline pumping, one would know when they were hit with a kukri.

A razor cut take take a few seconds to start to sting or bleed. {IMHO.}

Sadly ther is a great shortage of accurate detailed information on kukri, currently available, in book or internet format.

Here is a great factual site , although in German.

http://www.kukri.de/kukri/kukri.html
{each kukri clicked on opens a Adobe pdf file.}

regards.
Spiral

[tom hyle]

The "and then his head fell off" story is widely told. The earliest version I'm aware of (.....) is in a C. 19 English book about a crusader cut with a Moslem sword. Now, one of the beautiful and frightening things about a cut from a sharp edge is how freely it bleeds after that instant of bloodlessness; the sharpness and lack of resistance counteracts the shock which would help protect from a more traumatic/concussive/contusive injury.

[spiral]

Cheers Tom, this storys obviously had a lot of reincarnations!

Razor cut still sounds most realistic to me, rather than decapitation, but each to thier own.

cheers,
Spiral

[JPSF]

Still in the working stages, but there are lots of kukris to look at. Eventually when an image is selected it will "open". Try the first one in each category and it will give you an idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.
www.kukris.net

[spiral]

Good stuf JP, thats a needed site.{IMHO}, I hope as a hard core kukri enthusiast, you will include some hard tecnical data, such as weight, & point of balance, as well as the fascinating history side?

That makes the kukri 3 dimesional to my mind rather than a flat one dimesional picture, which although looking nice has no meat on its bones.

In other words It makes it a lot easier to "see" the kukri, if I know whether a 25in. long kukri weights 24 oz or 40oz. for example. And wheter tha balance pont is 6 or 9 inches in front of the bolster.


I am sure this must be true for other serious enthusiasts as well.

I Look forward to your sites further development.

Regards.
Spiral

[sirupate]

Nice one JP I agree Spiral, that info will enhance the picture, enabling one to understand what the kukri in picture is truly all about

Cheers Simon

[derek]

Hi guys,

I've shared most of these with JP already, but would any of you please comment on any of these kukris -- especially the all metal one on the bottom of the group? Also, the one with the darjeeling stamp -- would it be a reject or just a double stamp?

JP, the military example is newly arrived, it matches number 47 on the www.kukris.net site? The cho may be different.

Thanks in advance,
-d

[spiral]

Hi Derek, A nice bunch of kukris!

Well not sure what info you are looking for, but here goes. from top down.

1,
hard to be certain of shape of this one due to angle of the photograph, quite possibly a style carried in WW2 though, {alyhough made both before & after the war as well.}
would need to see an un angled photo shot, to be more confident in my oppinions.

length, weight & point of balance { when lying flat on its side on your finger, defined as a point of measured distance in front of the bolster/blade conjunction. would all assist as would any pix of grip, bolster, small knives, scabbard stitching etc. etc.

Is the handle buffalo horn ? it looks probable? but pix are tricky sometimes!



2,
A typical Darjeeling style Sirupate, civilian post ww2, although Darjeeling is In India , it has a large population of Gurkha descent & as is often the case , has a strong natnalist movement that wishes to seperate from India.

Historicaly the borders of Nepal & India have moved many times & ther have been many population shifts amongst the tribes of Nepal & not forgeting the Garhwallis & Kuamon of course, Indian tribes that used to be inlisted in the Gurkha units many years ago & who also carry the kukri, add to that the massive Gurkha garrisons stationed in many areas of India & it becomes quite a complex picture.

I dont think double stamping would mean reject, just an idiosincracy of the stamping process or individul doing the stamping.

What makes you think it may be a reject? Is ther some serious flaw within its construction?



3,
It looks like an early British Indian mk.2, Although these were made up to & during WW2, Yours definatly Appears to be WW1 style . {Actualy made untill 1920.{rather than 1918 } rather than later.

I find it hard to make out the tiny numbers on the kukri.com photo site but to me m.47 looks a later shouldered military model, without the smooth curve to the blade, with steel instead of brass rivets & single wide prounounced rounded finger projection. A totaly different beast to my eye, although obviously until the site is actualy working with the posibilitie of larger photos , it will be very hard to be totaly certain.



4,
An unusual brass Kothimara ,probably not incredibly expensive, with a one piece chape & locket combined.which I would say was post WW2. I like the Hindu sun god & crescent moon symbol, both of which of course important Nepali symbols.{Although used by other countrys as well of course.}


Hope thats of some intrest, Derek if you want any further comment from me feel free to ask either , here, or by email.

regards,
Spiral

[derek]

Thanks, Spiral. I will include measurements (should have done in the first place).

The first grip is wood. Of all of them, this one feels the fastest and most balanced.

The darjeeling reject theory was just a guess based on talks w/ JP -- it shows no flaws other then the stamp.

The military feels fantastic and has a nice weight. The lines are very clean and precise on it.

This last one I am having trouble with. I am going to defer to more experienced folks like yourself, but I think if you saw this one in person you would be inclined to say military. The metal is very solid and heavy. It has a "manufactured" feel to it that is much like a solid metal canteen from the WWI or WWII era. The form and fit (note the holes for the chakmak, etc.) are very precise and polished. Note the loops for the belt strap. Again, I'm new to Kukris, but being a collector who has seen a lot of ethno & military items I would think this one would have been made to a spec.

Thanks again for the comments. I've always admired these knives, but working with JP has really turned my attention to them in a new way. Yet another collecting obsession germinating...

[inveterate]

Welcome to the world of Kukris Derek. Rod.

[sirupate]

Nice collection Derek be especially interested in the length and weight of the WWII kuk.
Cheers Simon

[derek]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Nice collection Derek be especially interested in the length and weight of the WWII kuk.
Cheers Simon

Hi Simon,

I don't have an accurate means to weigh it, but OAL is 17 1/2 inches, Blade is 13", and pob from base of blade is 3 3/4.

Here is another, very different, example that I would like to hear comments on. It has a mark on it that looks like eyelashes? If not for the cho, I would think it was a SEA work knife. It's about 13 1/2 OAL and well-used:

[tom hyle]

Interestingly, it resembles a giant version of the little knife that rides around with kukuris.

[inveterate]

Derek, Me thinks an early "Villager" most likely 1880s- 1920. Interesting Kukri
Is the Grip original to the Knife you think? Rod

[sirupate]

Reckon you could well be right there Vet, some sort of Sirupate/Langapate Villager?

Cheers Simon

[spiral]

Hi Derek,

Well you have the advantage of bieng able to handle the brass kothimara, whearas I am just looking at the picture.

Those symbols are certanly used by the Nepali army units. So it is possible.


The measurments you gave Simon , sound the same as I would expect for the ww1 mk 2 rather than the 1st kukri {probably ww2} in your photograph, which ,I guess looks shorter because of perspective?

Thats an intresting villager kukri knife you have there, these are the nearest thing Ive come across to that style. They seem a rare vairety.

These are all well made & carved but the top one is exceptionaly good carving when handled.


These all have an unusual rounded edge, rather flat spine , instead of the usual peaked variety.

Obviously thier handles are also distinctive as leaping dragons or possibly lions. {the top one has leads from its nostrils in the manner of some Chinese dragoons.{could be a chinthe perhaps?}

The top one is very old, while the 2 lower ones are certainly 20th century.

Thier lengths are 12,11 & 8 inches respectivly, so the largest is an inch & a half shorter than yours. The small one could pass as a large Karda although it obviously has a full bolster.

The fact that 3 of such similar design have turned up, with probaly an age span of over 100 years implys a definate style, probably made within a particular localised region.


Is the spine peaked on your one? it looks very similar blade concept.
only real differance is the grip.

Spiral

[derek]

Tom,

You have a knack for making visual associations. It does like a big chakmak or karda (don't remember which is what).

Regarding the spine of the blade -- it is completely flat. In fact, the blade is generally thinner than most Kukris I've seen.

By the way, those are fantastic hilts! They remind a little bit of the kastane's grip. Mine would definitely be the "working stiff's" version compared to those.

Thanks for sharing those. BTW, have you heard the term "Madras" applied to those before?

-d

[spiral]

Well Derek, Thank you for the compliment about the hilts, The top one is incredible, the others are nice but not the same level of skill.

As yours has a flat blade spine as well as the same general blade shape, it seems a possible that it comes from the same region. My 2 scabbards wear no loops, buttons or pouches for smaller knives, tinder etc, & clearly never have. Is this the same with yours?


Madras knife? Well all us collectors are living proof of how much weapons can move about. But I dont think they have much to do with Madras, The top one came from Auckland NZ , So I could call it a an Auckland knife, With some but not complete accuracy!

Actualy to be candid they seem to probably be from north west Nepal, near the Tibet border, in what I understand is an area closed to most westerners, by the Nepali army. {or it used to be anyway.} { hence the populations poverty & the rareness of the these knives perhaps?}

The middle one was given to an English teacher in the northen Humla district, on the day she left,by a old man of the Bhotia tribe after she had helped set up an education programe there.{It failed as the parents prefered the children to help work the crops.} She thought it was similar to other kukri she saw there.

Humla is probably the poorest district in Nepal & the majority of the northen Humla villages are Bhudhist. I think many of the people have partial Tibetan ancestry, many Tibetans & some Sherpas also live there,along with a small minority of "high class" Hindus of the Chetri class in some villages.

Thats part of my reason for thinking the dragon head is perhaps a Chinthe. {which I understand is a Budhist temple gaurdian, {coincedently its the same animal that my fathers army unit took for there badge in Burma. {The Chindits.}


So personaly I would classl these, possibly yours & certainly mine as quite probably Humla region Bhotia made kukris probably with Budhist & possibly even some slight Tibetan influnce. {Any Tibetan experts in the house?}

I Would be delighted to hear of anywhere else they have turned up. most kukri collectors Ive spoken to dont seem to have come across them.

Spiral