genuine of fake?

[hoorn178]

Sorry somehow my massage has gone.

Question was how to determine if a sword or keris is an antique or recent well made piece.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by hoorn178

Dear all,

Having seen many blades now I am starting to wonder if it is still possible to really determine if a sword or a keris is a good fake or a genuine antique piece.
Cheers Bart.

Hi Bart

We need to clarify "FAKE". If a seller is trying to pass of a newly made sword or keris that was made in the tradition way than it would be considered a faked Antique. If one creates a new piece in the traditional manner and it is stated so I think I would consider it a reproduction. There are still swords such as katana,dah and keris that are being produced today by highly skilled artisans that I would not consider being fake. If your question is how do I tell the difference between truly well made antique and a modern tradition piece than we can make some comparisons to show you what to look for.

Lew

[hoorn178]

Thanks Lew,

I understand what you mean. I have seen many blades now the past years but I still find it difficult to see if it is an antique. Your comparisons would be helpfull
Cheers,
Bart.

[A. G. Maisey]

Experience Bart.

Lots and lots and lots of experience.

In the field of keris I have over 50 years worth of experience. I have been taught by the best and most knowledgeable people in this field. I can still make mistakes.

I have seen errors made by the man who is perhaps the foremost connoisseur of Javanese art and the keris.

The whole experience of weapons study and collecting is an ongoing exercise in learning. It never stops.

[Rich]

I must concur with these folks observations. I've studied and collected
Japanese swords for nearly 30 years and have had the chance to study
and learn from many of the most knowledge folks in the field. Even the
Japanese experts will at times disagree as to the age, maker or school
of a sword. Lord knows I've made more than my share of screwups.
The entry of the Chinese fakers (some of which are EXTREMELY good)
complicates matters even more. I must get and see a dozen messages
a week from "newbies" (no offense intended in that term) who have
been taken and bought "genuine antique Japanese swords" that were
just plain Chinese fakes. What really hurts is that the fakers not only
defraud and injure the buyer, but the whole collecting community as
well. Many times a newbie, once burned, will never look at another
katana. Thus a potential collector, student of the sword, is lost forever.
I'm sure it's the same with most all fields of antiques.
All one can do is study, see as many good examples as possible and
listen to that little voice in the back of your head. When it says
too good to be true - it is.

Rich S

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

[Emanuel]

The first keris I got was a piece of garbage. It looked like a gilded naga blade and I thought "man it must be my luck to stumble on this and all other collectors missed it" I was very sorely surprised when I got a piece of rusted, painted copper. So I showed it to folks here and one fine gentleman took the time to show me good keris and teach me about them. So I will echo what has been already said, look at good examples, talk to those who know about the blades you want, and read a LOT. Buy some decent old and new pieces with guidance from those more knowledgeable and learn to distinguish the important features that sets them apart.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Very well said and pertinant comments from all of the gentlemen who have posted here on this most valid topic, all of whom I personally consider the 'top guns' on these edged weapons
In my opinion the most important weapon a collector can own is knowledge, and as Alan has wisely noted, none of us ever stops learning.

All very best regards,
Jim

[RSWORD]

I have often said that a few buying mistakes along your collecting experience is simply tuition to be paid to our hobby. I don't know of a single long term collector that has not made a buying mistake of one form or another. While it can be discouraging and frustrating and annoying one has to look at it as a great lesson. I know of serious students of the hobby that will actually purchase a few of the really good reproductions to study against authentic examples. Also, over time, the more examples you can actually handle, both good and bad, will provide you with a base of knowledge to help you in your collecting endeavors.

[asomotif]

Hello Bart,

A complicated question.
Especially when Keris are concerned.
The newmade blades are sometimes so well made.

I often use the 'SEARCH' function on this website to look for earlier threads and see what was discussed and if pictures where posted for comparison.

Good luck,
Willem

[Montino Bourbon]

There's wonderful work being done today; look at the 'masters of fire' exhibit and you can see contemporary blades that are worthy of a king. Useable, beautiful, and also art that will appreciate with time. In a few hundred years, some of the blades made today will be classics.

So I have no argument with something totally modern if it's good.

A 'fake' is something else; it's usually something being passed for something else. A well-made modern sword being sold as an antique is a 'fake' antique, but may be an excellent sword. Then the question becomes one of knowing the real value of the piece, and experience, a lot of it, and handling as many pieces as you can personally helps, along with guidance from experienced collectors.

Again, it depends on what you want and what you expect. Art that you like now, and that really shows care and inspiration in the creation of it, will probably stand the test of time.

And yes, it's difficult to be sure when buying something from a picture and a description on ebay. That's why collecting is an adventure!

[Henk]

Bart,

All members who placed a reaction on your topic are right.

Alan's topic (A.G. Maisey) is one to learn by heart.
Emanuel's advice is one to remember. We are not allowed to discuss pending auctions, but talk with other knowledgeable forummembers or fellowcollectors in your neighbourhood about a piece you might consider to buy.

Sometimes hestiation is a missed change on a marvelous piece, but a missed change can turn out in a peaceful feeling in your wallet.

[Battara]

I echo what everyone else has said plus one other thing.

I do research on what I like including handling and museums. Thus when I come up on something I don't know anything about or little about I pass (as hard as that is sometimes). I usually don't get anything I have not researched.

[t_c]

Ditto on all of the above.
One thing that has helped me though is understanding the material process by which weapons are created. If you understand forging, tempering, jewelry making, wood carving, finishing, etc. you will be able to "see into" a piece better.

[A. G. Maisey]

Earlier mentioned a world renowned authority on Javanese art and the keris who made mistakes.

In the past this gentleman was regarded by some people in the Javanese keris trade as something like a bank account that could be drawn on at will. They would produce, one way or another, something unique that had not been see before, take it along to this gentleman with a wonderful story and a sufficiently high price, and it was almost certain that he would buy.

Now, he could, and can, afford to take risks, and sometimes his gambles paid off, but for those of us who have limited funds it is perhaps best to play the game more safely.

I have bought one keris off ebay. Only one. I bought that because I had sold it six months previously and I was able to buy it back for a fraction of what it would cost in Jawa.I do not buy off ebay because for the most part I cannot see sufficient to give me confidence to buy. If I wanted to gamble, and have fun, I would buy from ebay. But I don't want to do this with keris. I do buy from ebay, and I do have fun, but I do not buy keris or weaponry, I buy things like English silver and photographic equipment and canoes.

Research is an integral part of the experience equation, but it is very difficult to apply any experience in some situations.

[Tim Simmons]

Alan that reads like you have had a few, as a quite happily say I have too. If you ain't got no dough then you have to rely on nouse. Sometimes you just have to push your luck. Some folks are stuck in boxes. I could post loads of stuff about the top art market forgeries in the paper today except they are not related to weapons. It is stagering how people can be, I wish I could get the police involved every time I have been sold a dud.

[Norman McCormick]

You really have to handle an item to be as sure as you can be that it is correct and even then the best can still be taken in, but items that have been made to actually be used as a tool and not just looked at or hung on a wall e.g. swords, daggers etc., have a different feel about them no matter which part of the world they come from. I do occasionally buy weaponry from e-bay but never pay any more than can be written off as an affordable mistake, except once and only after communicating with the seller a number of times and requesting more detailed photographs, and this affordable amount obviously varies from person to person. Buyer Beware is an old and oft quoted saying but still true nonetheless.
Regards,
Norman.

[Tim Simmons]

In a tooth and claw open market why are these people being strung up. Just because you are rich and buy a fake or dud why should you be protected by the law? They made this stuff in there garden shed??? All that bollocks education and posh art market nonesence leveled by a couple of rough necks.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, I was not writing of myself, but a very famous fellow who is now a Javanese Prince and has been a directive force in Indonesian society since the days of Sukarno. A very, very important, knowledgeable and influential man. Not a nonentity like myself.

But yes, I have made errors. These days, very, very few, in fact, I cannot recall any recent material errors at all, but going back 40 years and more I made quite a few. In light of my knowledge at that time, none were avoidable, I only had experience in the keris in the Australian environment until I was well into my twenties,and this was not enough back prior to the increased flow of information generated by the internet and all the new publications.

I have always thought of these errors, and the costs involved in learning about the keris, as education expenses. How much does a degree cost ? How much does it cost to put a kid through primary school? All education costs money. You pay the tuition costs and move on. If I add up what it has cost me to learn about keris, I could probably have paid for several post graduate degrees. At least.

But the bottom line is that I can still make a mistake.

This realisation is probably the most important single thing I have learnt.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

You really have to handle an item to be as sure as you can be that it is correct and even then the best can still be taken in, but items that have been made to actually be used as a tool and not just looked at or hung on a wall e.g. swords, daggers etc., have a different feel about them no matter which part of the world they come from. I do occasionally buy weaponry from e-bay but never pay any more than can be written off as an affordable mistake, except once and only after communicating with the seller a number of times and requesting more detailed photographs, and this affordable amount obviously varies from person to person. Buyer Beware is an old and oft quoted saying but still true nonetheless.
Regards,
Norman.

I definately agree with the above statement. Even then, one CAN be taken in, but...an old collector friend of mine has a great saying "If it does not look or feel right, then it probably isn't!"
I once had the misfortune of buying 5 Yemeni daggers in one lot off Ebay, only to find that when they arrived they were ALL fakes! The "silver" bands were actually tin, still stamped on the reverse side with the brand of product which they originally held! LUCKILY in this case I managed to extract a refund from the seller, BUT had I not, it is a very long way from NZ to Dubai to bang on someones door!!
The buyer definately has to be really careful and if you can not obtain satisfactory answers from the seller, AND the pics are unclear, then no matter how cheap you think you are getting an item, it is better to leave it alone! DO NOT ALWAYS BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ AS AN ITEM DESCRIPTION. IT IS HUMAN NATURE TO EMBELISH DESCRIPTIONS TO EXTRACT HIGH PRICES!
Stuart

[pinoy]

p

[ariel]

No matter how smart, experienced and careful we are, there will always be a forger able to fool us.
Collecting is a passion, and reason is always put on a back burner when passion is concerned ( divorce lawyers make a very nice living ).
We always dream about finding a "sleeper", and these happen just often enough to whet our appetites for yet another adventure .
No pain, no gain. I once got in a frantic e-bay negotiation with some guy selling a seemingly ugly kindjal. Got it for a sum that made him exceedingly happy. Well, it is mine, and it is something that rightfully belongs in the main collection of the Hermitage. Of course, my next adventure was less successful, to put it mildly
What are the main reasons for our failures?
- Smart seller/good forger/just a criminal ( as we speak, one very successful e-bayer fell victim to a sting; I'll post details a bit later)
- Greed ( yup, we are only humans...)
- Careless abandon of reason ( ditto)
- Self-indulgence ( " I am miserable and need a candy"
Education and self-restraint are very important in preventing most of stupid mistakes, but a risk-averse collector will end up with a bunch of boring, run-of-the-mill and cheap things.

After all, people who once actually wielded the very same swords we are currently buying took infinitely greater risks.

Addendum: as promised, here are the details:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=006
About year and a half ago, there was a similar "collection" of unbelievably good Ottoman and Indian swords offered by a seller from the Ukraine. He re-listed each sword ~1 week after sale (enough time for bank transfer), and sold each one 3 times! Needless to say, he got negative feedbacks from his "marks". Currently, he also has a great shamshir for sale, private auction. The seller's names used were all inactive for several years and had very good feedbacks.
Who is willing to bet that the buyer of this Tulwar is going to get it in the mail?
And, of course, e-bay made it impossible to contact the buyer and warn him.