AssadUllah Cartouche/Stamp

[ALEX]

Recently I came across saif with depicted below stamp. There is magnitude of AssadUllah stamps, and most of old/original ones are carved, chiselled or coftgaried. This one is done in a different manner, which I have not seen before, it is "inscribed" on the steel, i.e. without deep relief. I think the stamp is not newly made, and would appreciate any comments/references, etc.

[ward]

Alex show the whole blade easier to date that way. I asked a friend who knows these he says it reads Assad ullah isfahani thats the city where he worked

ward

[ALEX]

I appreciate and value your comments Ward. Thank You!
I studied this shamshir for a short while, and it puzzles me. I knew the stamp reads "AA Isfahani", but I'd love to reach an intelligent conclusion as of this stamp's authenticity (not easy, I know) Most AA stamps I've seen are either obvious fakes, or at least old and made in certain fashion. This one is old, I think, but made in an unusual fashion. The blade is wootz with prolongated wavy pattern. The sword's shape suggests 19 Cent Arabian saif, IMHO. My current take is: "If AA insignia played such an important role of quality and prestige, the AA stamp should represent the same". Perhaps I am being too judgmental, but the lion looks particularly unusual to me.

[ward]

Nice sword Alex hilt looks Indian to me
article on shamshirs Oliver Pinchot wrote is probably
best way to answer your questions he went into all that


ward

[Rick]

Originally Posted by ward

Nice sword Alex hilt looks Indian to me
article on shamshirs Oliver Pinchot wrote is probably
best way to answer your questions he went into all that


ward

Agreed .
A very well done piece by Oliver .

[ALEX]

Ward,
I have the article, and you're right - it's a good reference. And it prooves my point - this particular Lion does NOT resemble the documented ones at all. As I mentioned earlier, almost all old/authentic Lions have certain position, form and style. Just like the one on your recently sold dagger, which is a true CLASSICAL depiction of a lion, and the one which is illustrated in Oliver's article. The Lion on this sword has no references, although I feel it is "old". And it makes it very interesting

[Jeff D]

Hi Alex,

Is there any way to get a little more clear image on the signature. It does look like Assaddollah but a Kalbali signature would explain why your Lion looks more canine.

All the Best
Jeff

[ariel]

The wootz looks Shams-y to me, ie the lowest denomonation. Fiegel excluded Assadullah's authorship in cases of Kirk Narduban merely "lacking complexity". This one does not look like a work of "the best master ". Also, the markings are somewhat crude. Good blade, no doubt, and I would love to have it, but not to the highest standard.
There are hundreds of blades signed with Assadullah's and Kalbali's names: they commanded higher prices. I think this is one of them.
Again, no insult meant.

[ward]

Would be very surprised if thats a dog on the sword instead of a lion. I travel a lot in Muslim countries havent been in Iran so not for sure but dogs are considered unclean in every traditional Islamic country.
Check out dogs in Islam on google theres alot out there on this
Ward

[Jim McDougall]

For the benefit of those not familiar with Oliver Pinchot's outstanding article, it is:
"The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", which appeared in "Arms Collecting" (the journal of the Canadian Arms Collecting Society) in Vol. 40, #1 , February, 2002.

This shamshir appears to me to be Indian, with the flueret shape on the langet which seems stylized after the familiar affectation on tulwar langets and as far as I know do not typically appear on Bedouin saifs. This is not to say that this was not produced in India to be exported to Arabia as it is well established that this trade was quite typical.

The clear imitation of the lion in cartouche would of course be intended to suggest the higher quality of the blade and appeal to the Bedouin, whose preference for Persian blades and swords was well known. I agree that the poor representation of the lion would still be intended as such, and the points in the circle around the cartouche associate with solar symbolism on Indian tulwar hilts in the pommel in many of the pommel dishes.

All best regards,
Jim

[ALEX]

Thank You Ward, Ariel, Jim, Rick and Jeff for nice discussion and informative opinions. I agree with Ward, I doubt is can be representation of a dog, as dogs would Never appear on anything of spiritual importance in Middle East. Also, I think the name Kalb, or Kalib, even sounding similar to "dog" in Arabic does NOT mean it literally. Jeff, the stamp does read "AssadUllah" and not Kalib Ali, but you've made very interesting point and suggestion. Thank You!
Ariel, I agree with your point, it does look Shamsy, BUT it has a fairly high contrast, and Shams is defined as low contrast wootz. Here is the picture of what Artzi describes as "Fantastic Wootz!", and I agree with him, even though it's wawy without any planar distortions, it is of high contrast, and this does mean quality! I inspected it very closely, and test-etched it, and this sword, when cleaned, will look similar.
Thanks to All!

[rand]

Hello Alex,

Interesting sword you have, Could you tell me if there are any occlusians along the spine of the blade? If there are any occlussians, are they filled with silver?

rand

[ALEX]

Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-)
Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)

[rand]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-)
Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)

Hello Alex,

Reason for asking about the occlussians on the spine was because they can be an indication of origen and quality, as you suggested.

The photo of Artzi's wootz blade that most people think of as sham may be erroneous, there is very little published of early wootz blades that show the surface pattern to use as reference and what is currently assumed may be wrong.

rand

[ALEX]

Rand, this is Very Interesting theory and discussion. I'd love to hear more of your reasoning and opinion on the pattern, occlusion/fold line and origin determination based on above. And, in particular, an opinion on this sword.

[Jeff D]

Hi Alex and Ward.

You both are correct of course, on the lowly status of the dog in Islam. However i have been led to believe that the dog is a symbol of loyalty in Shi'a lore. Kalb'Ali meaning 'dog of the Exalted' makes more sense in this context.
I have seen the dog/wolf cartouche on only one occassion, although it was better executed than the posted sample there were similarities particularly the tail. Your example could be as discussed earlier, a poorly detailed lion and this is much more likely with the confirmation on the signature.
I think the dog cartouche is extremely rare for the reasons you both have mentioned.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, thank you for bringing in this information. That makes perfect sense for the dog to represent loyalty symbolically, and being a dog lover myself, makes me a lot happier than considering negative connotations for them
It is always fascinating to learn and understand more on the application of symbolism in the wider range of Islam that appear on these weapons.

All the best,
Jim

[rand]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rand, this is Very Interesting theory and discussion. I'd love to hear more of your reasoning and opinion on the pattern, occlusion/fold line and origin determination based on above. And, in particular, an opinion on this sword.

Hey Alex,

Would you tell me the length of the blade in a straight line from tip to edge at hilt?

Thanks,

rand

[ALEX]

Rand,
The blade is 31 1/2, overall is 36 1/2, the width at forte is 1 1/8.

Also, let me entertain this idea: perhaps it is not a dog or lion but a TIGER!
I am not suggesting it belonged to Tipu himself but perhaps it had to do something with the concept-)

[ward]

I doubt that it is a tiger with Assad Allah on it. I always thought the lion looked like a frightened kitty cat but I know that is not the case. One of the important things to remember in Islamic weapons is that it is heavily based on tradition. That is why you see many forms and decoration unchanged for 100’s of years. A good example of this is the Arabic language. Since Allah gave the written form directly to Mohammed the words of god can not be changed. The alphabet and spelling has not changed in over 1300 years {approximate} The language has been added to but not changed.

[rand]

The symbol of the tiger has a long tradition in Islamic history. During the reign of the Mamluks the Sultan (they had different names for the ruler) had a special robe decorated with tiger stripes thas was a symbol of one of the Mamluk orders. Tiger was also a popular name, Babur, Tipu and the blazon of Sultan Baybars was a tiger. In Mongolian and Uyghhur bars means tiger. Have often wonder if they have been any mis-translations for the word tiger. There are references to tiger, lion and panther relating to bravery and tenaciousness in Islamic history.

rand

[ward]

Assad Allah= Lion of God

why would you have a picture of anything else ? If it did not have assad written on it I could see a tiger or cat but this is not the case

[ALEX]

Yes, good point Ward. I must agree with you. Thanks much!