Curious construction, fantasy

fearn · 11th December 2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think the handle is taken from the fork of a meat carving set or perhaps the knife sharpener, I have a carving set with similar handle.

In my mind I distinguish Druids into two groups, the real (ancient)and the modern. Truth is we dont know much about the ancient druids but many of the modern drudic societys have been built on the few craps we do have, People then improvise to fill the gaps.

Absolutely, Pusaka. That's always the grump about the modern druids. The funny thing is that the "Druid revival" began back around 1717, or some such early date, and one of the questions is, how long does a "revival" have to be around before it's accepted as genuine in its own right? I mean, we're going on three hundred years of englishmen wearing white robes and carrying sickles. Isn't that long enough? To a large degree it's irrelevant, though. Only the shysters claim to have some sort of unbroken connection with the ancient druids.

Tim Simmons · 11th December 2007, 07:56 PM

You are right Fearn. I might be Stalin but I am not too stupid "I hope" to recognise the need and comfort some people get from such activities.

The items in this link do have some real merit. Something very familiar to some East Asian knife though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...and_Boline.JPG

fearn · 11th December 2007, 08:55 PM

Not a problem Tim. I, for one, always appreciate differences in view, so long as we can discuss them, rather than fight over them.

This is actually an interesting period in the rise of Wicca, especially. There isn't a set form for athames or bolines (the two ritual blades in some traditions), and so what we're seeing here is essentially an experimental or evolutionary period where people figure out "what works," however that is defined. A lot of material gets borrowed, including that athame you cited. Personally, I think that is a great form, and it will be hilarious if, in two centuries, people are trying to figure out how the Thais influenced wicca, because of the standard shape of the athame at that time...

In other swords (like the dha), we're stuck trying to figure out how to classify designs, and how they originated and changed over time. Perhaps we should be encouraging pagans to keep a provenance on their tools, so that in a few centuries, the collectors and enthusiasts will have a better idea how the forms evolved in their formative decades. Just a thought.

Pusaka · 11th December 2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

how long does a "revival" have to be around before it's accepted as genuine in its own right?

Unless there is a continuous unbroken line back to the original druids knowledge can not be passes from mouth to ear, once that line is broken its gone.

"Revival" suggests the knowledge is surfficent to revive, from my study there is not surfficent knowledge to revive what was lost.

fearn · 12th December 2007, 01:01 AM

Hi Pusaka,

You're right, although druid revival is the terminology used. I'd point out in contrast, that there is a line of succession that is several hundred years old among the revivalist druids, and the question is whether should be considered fake, simply because the revivalist druids use a name that is several thousand years old.

Again, I'd point out that this is uncomfortable ground for this particular forum, which is really about the artifacts, not the "authenticity" (however defined) of the traditions that produced them. For me, having a tradition that is several centuries old is authentic enough, even if it doesn't trace directly back to the old headhunting, slave taking Celts.

F

Andi · 24th November 2012, 09:58 AM

Ki kronckew!

I just found this "historic" thread.

The seax blades are looking like being inspired by scandinavian and anglo saxon seax types from the 9th and 10th century AD.

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax_of_Beagnoth you will find some examples which corresponds to your seax blades.

The handles made of horn are a new interpretation in my eyes. From continental seax types of the 6th and 7th century I only know one single preserved archaeological find out of the publications.
Unfortunately i am not so firm with the anglo saxon and scandinavian seax types. Metal decoration on the scabbard is well known from eastern baltic and Slavic finds, spreading out to the Viking age in nothern Europe.

ariel · 24th November 2012, 02:56 PM

A weapon forum that fails to mention Gerald B. Gardner, one of the earliest students of Indonesian weapons and an author of " Kris and other Malay weapons", as a Father of the Wicca Movement, is doing itself a disservice :-)

kronckew · 24th November 2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi

...

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax_of_Beagnoth you will find some examples which corresponds to your seax blades.

...

funny you should mention that. my good buddy Beagnoth lost that seax in the river while crossing to meat me and my buddies in 779 a.d., he had had another one made which he presented to me when i married two of his daughters on my next visit in 780 a.d.. well, i say married, actually i was a viking from the area now known as prussia who visited essex on my summer holidays (er, raid to be more accurate) and i acquired the two daughters and the langseax as souveniers of my trip. beagnoth didn't need it any more as he'd expired during a rowdy episode immediately preceding the aquisition of his daughters. we had many fine sons together back in old prussia after they recovered from the shock of the sea voyage and change of venue. i have kept the seax well maintained over the few years i've had it. sadly my initial two wives are not with me anymore. the seax still is. i also have my old pocket watch which shows up in the photo.

as it is a reproduction of ol' beagie's original i've not mentioned it before here. sadly the gold of the original was not reproduced on this one, beagie hadn't had it long enough to send it off to the goldsmith for the full treatment before he left it to me...i did manage to add the gold bands on the wood grip later on. a monk loaned me the gold. i said a prayer to odin for him as i rewarded him with a free pass over bifrost. valhalla was a bit short on cooks, i'd heard, so i gave him a job there. he screamed with joy.

Pukka Bundook · 25th November 2012, 04:51 PM

Interesting topics, gentlemen!

The listing and pics of the converted sythe blade has been removed now, so can't comment on it, but!.....when I was a lad in Yorkshire, a lot of hard up old farmers used a piece of cut-down sythe blade to make turnip snaggers.
The blade being shortened and a handle fitted.
The blade being thin, it kept nice and sharp for the job.
I remember our neighbour on the next farm cut his hand pretty badly with one of these, and it was quiter common as well!
We always had 'proper' turnip snaggers of various designs, from curved like mini sickles, to straight wide blades, to a narrow straight blade with a spike on the back at the tip, to help pull up an unwilling turnip!
So.....The item in question may have been one of these.

Druids;
I've not much patience with the 'new' druids. The old druids weren't even a religious order, more 'keepers of knowlege'
Pusaka hit the nail on the head re. this.
The 'new' ones may have been around a couple of hundred years now, but are still walking by the light of their own sparks.
Re worshipping at Stonehenge;
It is of some interest, that we are as far removed in time from the original Druids,(say 2,000 years) as the Druids were from the time when stonenhenge was built. (2700 BC)
It's possible Druids did use Stonehenge, but it was a couple of thousand years old when they got there!
Going back and re-reading what I've just writ, I think I must be an opinionated old Crabbit!

Sax;
We have a local Viking group here, who insist the "Broke-Back Sax" is the only right one.
It seems the broke back style was used more in Saxon and Anglo-Saxon knives (A-S being where the term Seax comes from)...and a bit later than some Scandanavian examples.
Very nice example you show, Kronckew!
Most Nordic saxes I have seen tend to be with a more symetrical tip.
On another forum there are some fantastic photos of original Saxes/Seaxes, and you are quite right Andi,
Most are straight handled and guardless. (Unless we get into 'Saxes" in the sagas, when it would Appear, a sax Could mean a single edged sword.

Now, to find this topic in the future, do we search for Sax, Seax, Druid, or Sythe?

All the best,
Richard.

fearn · 25th November 2012, 06:14 PM

Pukka,

I tried to walk this line when I first posted, but we DO have to be a little careful when talking about religion on this site. We have people of many beliefs on this site (including pagans, atheists, agnostics, and others). We have people from communities where minority religions are widely tolerated, as well as people from communities where minority religions are suppressed or strongly discriminated against.

In such a diverse environment, it's easy to start a conflict over beliefs. That's why I think it's better to focus on the artifacts, rather than use them as cover or pretext for a discussion about what we think about religions we don't subscribe to.

As for the druids I do know, they're quite open about their lack of connection with the ancient druids. They also see the divine out in the natural world, and that's the real basis for their beliefs.

The original artifact was actually a rather interesting combination of a 19th Century horn carving knife handle with a Victorian-era sickle blade attached, for sale on eBay. Personally, I hope that it was picked up by some druid somewhere, because it substantially more stylish than most of the cruft sold as "druid's sickles" today.

11th December 2007, 07:56 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	You are right Fearn. I might be Stalin but I am not too stupid "I hope" to recognise the need and comfort some people get from such activities. The items in this link do have some real merit. Something very familiar to some East Asian knife though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...and_Boline.JPG

11th December 2007, 08:55 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Not a problem Tim. I, for one, always appreciate differences in view, so long as we can discuss them, rather than fight over them. This is actually an interesting period in the rise of Wicca, especially. There isn't a set form for athames or bolines (the two ritual blades in some traditions), and so what we're seeing here is essentially an experimental or evolutionary period where people figure out "what works," however that is defined. A lot of material gets borrowed, including that athame you cited. Personally, I think that is a great form, and it will be hilarious if, in two centuries, people are trying to figure out how the Thais influenced wicca, because of the standard shape of the athame at that time... In other swords (like the dha), we're stuck trying to figure out how to classify designs, and how they originated and changed over time. Perhaps we should be encouraging pagans to keep a provenance on their tools, so that in a few centuries, the collectors and enthusiasts will have a better idea how the forms evolved in their formative decades. Just a thought.

12th December 2007, 01:01 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Pusaka, You're right, although druid revival is the terminology used. I'd point out in contrast, that there is a line of succession that is several hundred years old among the revivalist druids, and the question is whether should be considered fake, simply because the revivalist druids use a name that is several thousand years old. Again, I'd point out that this is uncomfortable ground for this particular forum, which is really about the artifacts, not the "authenticity" (however defined) of the traditions that produced them. For me, having a tradition that is several centuries old is authentic enough, even if it doesn't trace directly back to the old headhunting, slave taking Celts. F

24th November 2012, 09:58 AM	#6
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Ki kronckew! I just found this "historic" thread. The seax blades are looking like being inspired by scandinavian and anglo saxon seax types from the 9th and 10th century AD. Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax_of_Beagnoth you will find some examples which corresponds to your seax blades. The handles made of horn are a new interpretation in my eyes. From continental seax types of the 6th and 7th century I only know one single preserved archaeological find out of the publications. Unfortunately i am not so firm with the anglo saxon and scandinavian seax types. Metal decoration on the scabbard is well known from eastern baltic and Slavic finds, spreading out to the Viking age in nothern Europe.

24th November 2012, 02:56 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A weapon forum that fails to mention Gerald B. Gardner, one of the earliest students of Indonesian weapons and an author of " Kris and other Malay weapons", as a Father of the Wicca Movement, is doing itself a disservice :-)

25th November 2012, 04:51 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Interesting topics, gentlemen! The listing and pics of the converted sythe blade has been removed now, so can't comment on it, but!.....when I was a lad in Yorkshire, a lot of hard up old farmers used a piece of cut-down sythe blade to make turnip snaggers. The blade being shortened and a handle fitted. The blade being thin, it kept nice and sharp for the job. I remember our neighbour on the next farm cut his hand pretty badly with one of these, and it was quiter common as well! We always had 'proper' turnip snaggers of various designs, from curved like mini sickles, to straight wide blades, to a narrow straight blade with a spike on the back at the tip, to help pull up an unwilling turnip! So.....The item in question may have been one of these. Druids; I've not much patience with the 'new' druids. The old druids weren't even a religious order, more 'keepers of knowlege' Pusaka hit the nail on the head re. this. The 'new' ones may have been around a couple of hundred years now, but are still walking by the light of their own sparks. Re worshipping at Stonehenge; It is of some interest, that we are as far removed in time from the original Druids,(say 2,000 years) as the Druids were from the time when stonenhenge was built. (2700 BC) It's possible Druids did use Stonehenge, but it was a couple of thousand years old when they got there! Going back and re-reading what I've just writ, I think I must be an opinionated old Crabbit! Sax; We have a local Viking group here, who insist the "Broke-Back Sax" is the only right one. It seems the broke back style was used more in Saxon and Anglo-Saxon knives (A-S being where the term Seax comes from)...and a bit later than some Scandanavian examples. Very nice example you show, Kronckew! Most Nordic saxes I have seen tend to be with a more symetrical tip. On another forum there are some fantastic photos of original Saxes/Seaxes, and you are quite right Andi, Most are straight handled and guardless. (Unless we get into 'Saxes" in the sagas, when it would Appear, a sax Could mean a single edged sword. Now, to find this topic in the future, do we search for Sax, Seax, Druid, or Sythe? All the best, Richard.

25th November 2012, 06:14 PM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Pukka, I tried to walk this line when I first posted, but we DO have to be a little careful when talking about religion on this site. We have people of many beliefs on this site (including pagans, atheists, agnostics, and others). We have people from communities where minority religions are widely tolerated, as well as people from communities where minority religions are suppressed or strongly discriminated against. In such a diverse environment, it's easy to start a conflict over beliefs. That's why I think it's better to focus on the artifacts, rather than use them as cover or pretext for a discussion about what we think about religions we don't subscribe to. As for the druids I do know, they're quite open about their lack of connection with the ancient druids. They also see the divine out in the natural world, and that's the real basis for their beliefs. The original artifact was actually a rather interesting combination of a 19th Century horn carving knife handle with a Victorian-era sickle blade attached, for sale on eBay. Personally, I hope that it was picked up by some druid somewhere, because it substantially more stylish than most of the cruft sold as "druid's sickles" today.