Very Old Firangi with Rapier blade in need of restoration.

Battara · 27th November 2007, 11:45 PM

Yeah, at this point, I also agree that an attempt at restoration would damage it. Active rust is the only living threat now.......

fernando · 28th November 2007, 12:52 AM

Hi David,
I understand you are only allowed to touch it ... for taking better pictures

That's a chest full of history. Congratulations.
If ever you get fed up of having it ... just tell

Fernando

katana · 28th November 2007, 01:52 PM

Thank you Battara for your opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

That's a chest full of history. Congratulations.
If ever you get fed up of having it ... just tell

Fernando

Hi Fernando ,
if the blade ever tells me it's 'homesick' for Portugal ..... you'll be the first to know ..... but I'll warn you now... I'll probably just 'gag' it and ignore it's pleading

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

NNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiccc cccccccccceeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

Gav

tttttttttthhhhhhhaaaaaannnnnnkkkkkksssssss !!!!! , 'touche' Gav

Would anyone know how 17thC Rapier blades were marked ?
When searching 'Firangi' I found an example that was cited as Moghul, the blade was the 'broadsword' type but the hilt had similar features including the 'line' detail on the knuckle guard. Could this be Moghul ?

I am also interested in how this sword would have been used. Do you think the sword technique would be similar to European Rapier use? I wonder whether the wide pommel would limit the wrist action/movement often used to control a rapier. Would a 'main gauche' or small buckler be used in tandem with this sword ?

Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 28th November 2007, 03:17 PM

Hi David,

Congratulations with your ’new’ khanda, or should I say firangi, as the blade most likely is a European rapier blade as Jim writes. Some would clean it so it looked like the day it was used, finding this more ‘historic’, while others would stop any active rust and let it be at that, keeping the patina as part of its history – I would say it is up to the owner to decide.

To me it looks as if the gild could be new, be course there seems to be rust under the gold – the surface looks very rough. You have the sword in your hand, so you are a better judge than I am – do you think there is rust under the gold?

Fighting, using a sword with a blade of 100 cm, would only have been for the best swordsmen to handle, just like not any swordsman could handle a pata – don’t forget that the blade is 20-30% longer than most Indian blades.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Thank you Battara for your opinion

Would anyone know how 17thC Rapier blades were marked ?
When searching 'Firangi' I found an example that was cited as Moghul, the blade was the 'broadsword' type but the hilt had similar features including the 'line' detail on the knuckle guard. Could this be Moghul ?

I am also interested in how this sword would have been used. Do you think the sword technique would be similar to European Rapier use? I wonder whether the wide pommel would limit the wrist action/movement often used to control a rapier. Would a 'main gauche' or small buckler be used in tandem with this sword ?

Regards David

Hi David,

I'm very glad you asked this question!!!!!

There happens to be a concurrent thread titled EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKINGS which we have had open for some time now. The purpose of that thread has been to develop a resource which talks about the many blade markings and inscriptions found on trade early trade blades, which indeed often included rapier blades as your example clearly illustrates.

I have trying to convince the forum that the markings found on European trade blades is an important topic in the study of ethnographic swords and edged weapons, unfortunately the overall interest has seemed less than resounding. I am extremely grateful to the members who have actively participated in the thread thus far, and they have already developed the thread comprehensively as a resource that gives us excellent material on these markings.

What is very exciting about your firangi, which is obviously in original state as mounted, proves that not only were early European blades mounted in swords in India, but more importantly, the thin rapier blades were as well. The questions you have so astutely asked are exactly in line with my contention on the markings thread

We have discussed many times over the years, whether European swordfighting techniques actually influenced Indian swordsmen, or whether they simply used the blades to mount in the swords without particular concerns on the key movements applying to the blade or sword forms. One of the great conundrums has been whether the forefinger was scrolled over the quillon to grip the hilt, as often seen in use of 17th Italian and Spanish rapiers.

I hope you and other readers will visit the thread on markings, and I think you will find many important answers on the markings and inscriptions found on these blades. Using the search will reveal some of the various discussions concerning the swordfighting techniques.

Thank you for posting this important example David, and especially for addressing the key questions associated with these weapons!

All very best regards,
Jim

fernando · 28th November 2007, 08:01 PM

Hi David,
As Jens days, not any man could handle these things.
Concerning their fighting style, while the experts don't post their saying, you may have to consider one of options, in my humble opinnion.
If this were a basic khanda, a two thousand years old hindu weapon, the blade would be straight and single edged, some times with its back reinforced and adorned. The blade shape could widen towards the tip, thus only being efective for thrust if the adversary was not body armoured. Its slashing power, however, was most feared throughout Asia ... one blow could mutilate an arm, armoury included. Remember this is a sort of "bastard" or "hand and half" sword, with that extra spike in the hilt. Such hilt being padded, could absorse the impact. If it were a Firangi with a wide blade, the function could well be the same. But being mounted with a rapier blade, maybe the option could tend, at least partly, to thrust fighting, following the original blade purpose.
On the other hand, those guys didn't use left hand daggers, nor did they go for fencing. When they used a support device, that would be the shield, very often a minuscle one. The Portuguese used to call it "rodela", to remind its round small size.
Concerning the blade marks, it's the usual lottery; some were blank ( maybe most of them ), and others were single or even profusely marked. I would recomend you to check on the thread opened by Jim on this theme
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453
I hope all i said doesn't sound nonsense

Fernando

katana · 30th November 2007, 07:12 PM

IT'S ARRIVED......

Hi Jens, thank you, the gilt colouring must have been caused by the lighting conditions when the original photographs were taken.

Hi Jim and Fernando, thank you for your input.

This is definately old

, it seems that the rust has been stablised and the sword seems covered with a thin transparent coating

The blade has a short central fuller, the blade 17mm wide, 5mm thick at the forte. Distally tapered thickness from 5mm - 1mm at the tip. Flatterned hexagonal in cross section and double edged. Tip is damaged.

There is a row of 4 dots with a slightly smaller one above the second dot (see photo) I'll assume they are the original maker's mark and are present both sides of the blade. Also within the fuller there are 'dots' that appear to be a 'rivet' but it is not directly present on the exact opposite side of the blade, as if it is some sort of 'inlay' (see pics)

As to construction.... the missing domed pommel and but spike is very revealing. The Rapier blade is held (two rivets) by two strengthening plates which are inverted 'T' shapes creating a cross guard.
Fitted to this 'crossguard' is the 'shell' of the guard, this is one piece construction and includes the knucklebow and the inner 'domed' pommel end. The 'handle' is a contoured pipe which is fitted between the guard shell and the inner dome.
Although the blade is secured to the hilt by the two rivets, it still has a tang which passes through the guard 'shell' through the handle and then through the 'inner' dome. The tang has sheared (a long time ago) but would have continued through the hilt 'outer domed' piece and would have been fixed to the but spike holding it all securely.

I believe that there is a very strong possibillity that the damage occured during combat. I think that the sword was being used two handed (using the but spike) and after a powerful strike (perhaps against a hard object) the tang sheared ...losing the pommel spike and pommel dome.

I have found that the pommel 'dome' is small enough not to interfere with wrist movement, which suggests to me that this could be used as a Rapier....cut and thrust style.

Regards David

katana · 1st December 2007, 04:11 PM

After reading Fernando's post on this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=5453&page=1

Perhaps the 'dot grouping' of a row of 4 with one dot above is to signify the number 14 or 41.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

........and with the magic numbers 1414 or 1441, are the oldest examples, which origin is attributed to Portuguese Colonial Arsenals and the realms of Dom Manuel ( 1495-1521 ) untill Dom Sebastião ( 1557-1578). It is worthy to mention that the numbers 1414 and 1441 were not the date of production ( under which very often they were classified ) but uniquely the application of a number considered “magic”. The study of numerology, a fashion of the period, attributed to figure “7”, as to its multiples and combinations, a Divine value. While the Arab cried Allah il Allah, the Christian would engrave the number 7 or, more often the 14 ( this being two times 7 ), or 1414 ( this being two times 7 plus another two times 7 ) or 1441 ( being 14 and the palidrome of another 14) on his blade, wishing to express this way his cry for Divine help in all four directions, as from the moment he unsheathed his sword. Number 1414 is also a reference to the Bible; Job, chapter 14, paragrapgh 14: Man dying, will he live again? Every days of my combat i would wait, untill my change arrived (in the Catholic version). Luther, much considered in Germany in the XVI century, has translated the Greek original, offering in simple language,the following interpretation to this Biblic quotation: When a man dyes, he will live again. So i will continue fighting until my moment comes."
All the best
Fernando

fernando · 1st December 2007, 11:04 PM

Hi David

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... The blade has a short central fuller, the blade 17mm wide, 5mm thick at the forte. Distally tapered thickness from 5mm - 1mm at the tip. Flattened hexagonal in cross section and double edged ...
... I believe that there is a very strong possibillity that the damage occured during combat. I think that the sword was being used two handed (using the but spike) and after a powerful strike (perhaps against a hard object) the tang sheared ...losing the pommel spike and pommel dome ...
... I have found that the pommel 'dome' is small enough not to interfere with wrist movement, which suggests to me that this could be used as a Rapier....cut and thrust style.

Extremely narrow rapier blade ... quite long and with an "estoc" cross section; good ( or almost only good ) for thrusting. Maybe much lighter than a classic Khanda blade ... maybe not even needing the suport of the butt spike for both counter balance and two hand striking. Maybe when the owner mounts this blade on a sword, he knows before hand what the options are; meanning that he might have deliberately cut off the butt spike, seeing no use for it, ready for the rapier actual technique ... fencing and thrusting ?!
As if i knew what i am talking about

Fernando

30th November 2007, 07:12 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	IT'S ARRIVED...... Hi Jens, thank you, the gilt colouring must have been caused by the lighting conditions when the original photographs were taken. Hi Jim and Fernando, thank you for your input. This is definately old , it seems that the rust has been stablised and the sword seems covered with a thin transparent coating The blade has a short central fuller, the blade 17mm wide, 5mm thick at the forte. Distally tapered thickness from 5mm - 1mm at the tip. Flatterned hexagonal in cross section and double edged. Tip is damaged. There is a row of 4 dots with a slightly smaller one above the second dot (see photo) I'll assume they are the original maker's mark and are present both sides of the blade. Also within the fuller there are 'dots' that appear to be a 'rivet' but it is not directly present on the exact opposite side of the blade, as if it is some sort of 'inlay' (see pics) As to construction.... the missing domed pommel and but spike is very revealing. The Rapier blade is held (two rivets) by two strengthening plates which are inverted 'T' shapes creating a cross guard. Fitted to this 'crossguard' is the 'shell' of the guard, this is one piece construction and includes the knucklebow and the inner 'domed' pommel end. The 'handle' is a contoured pipe which is fitted between the guard shell and the inner dome. Although the blade is secured to the hilt by the two rivets, it still has a tang which passes through the guard 'shell' through the handle and then through the 'inner' dome. The tang has sheared (a long time ago) but would have continued through the hilt 'outer domed' piece and would have been fixed to the but spike holding it all securely. I believe that there is a very strong possibillity that the damage occured during combat. I think that the sword was being used two handed (using the but spike) and after a powerful strike (perhaps against a hard object) the tang sheared ...losing the pommel spike and pommel dome. I have found that the pommel 'dome' is small enough not to interfere with wrist movement, which suggests to me that this could be used as a Rapier....cut and thrust style. Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 1st December 2007 at 01:54 PM.

27th November 2007, 11:45 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Yeah, at this point, I also agree that an attempt at restoration would damage it. Active rust is the only living threat now.......

28th November 2007, 12:52 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi David, I understand you are only allowed to touch it ... for taking better pictures That's a chest full of history. Congratulations. If ever you get fed up of having it ... just tell Fernando

28th November 2007, 03:17 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi David, Congratulations with your ’new’ khanda, or should I say firangi, as the blade most likely is a European rapier blade as Jim writes. Some would clean it so it looked like the day it was used, finding this more ‘historic’, while others would stop any active rust and let it be at that, keeping the patina as part of its history – I would say it is up to the owner to decide. To me it looks as if the gild could be new, be course there seems to be rust under the gold – the surface looks very rough. You have the sword in your hand, so you are a better judge than I am – do you think there is rust under the gold? Fighting, using a sword with a blade of 100 cm, would only have been for the best swordsmen to handle, just like not any swordsman could handle a pata – don’t forget that the blade is 20-30% longer than most Indian blades. Jens

28th November 2007, 08:01 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi David, As Jens days, not any man could handle these things. Concerning their fighting style, while the experts don't post their saying, you may have to consider one of options, in my humble opinnion. If this were a basic khanda, a two thousand years old hindu weapon, the blade would be straight and single edged, some times with its back reinforced and adorned. The blade shape could widen towards the tip, thus only being efective for thrust if the adversary was not body armoured. Its slashing power, however, was most feared throughout Asia ... one blow could mutilate an arm, armoury included. Remember this is a sort of "bastard" or "hand and half" sword, with that extra spike in the hilt. Such hilt being padded, could absorse the impact. If it were a Firangi with a wide blade, the function could well be the same. But being mounted with a rapier blade, maybe the option could tend, at least partly, to thrust fighting, following the original blade purpose. On the other hand, those guys didn't use left hand daggers, nor did they go for fencing. When they used a support device, that would be the shield, very often a minuscle one. The Portuguese used to call it "rodela", to remind its round small size. Concerning the blade marks, it's the usual lottery; some were blank ( maybe most of them ), and others were single or even profusely marked. I would recomend you to check on the thread opened by Jim on this theme http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453 I hope all i said doesn't sound nonsense Fernando