Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

[Tim Simmons]

I might be that psychic

[fernando]

As anybody considered it being a circumcision knife?
If this is a silly idea, just forget it

[Tim Simmons]

Stop boasting. lets keep the top on.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Stop boasting. lets keep the top on.

I don't get it ... i am quite serious
I have been all the afternoon consulting sites on this theme ... i even saw a couple knives for such exercize. Only none looked like this one.
I have seen some such tools when i was in Africa, reason why the idea came to my mind.
But if it is not wellcome, i will draw it back.
Sorry
Fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Fernando dear chap it was meant as a joke. It is a big knife for a big ? you would not want to loose the top. Sorry I am British we cannot help ourselves.

I have been searching too. As you have read I went for it thinking it was African. I wonder? If I was right in the first place

[Mark]

Two thoughts. A sacrificial knife for slitting the throat of the (hopefully) animal sacrifice does not need to be practical in form, so the odd curve doesn't rule that out I think. On another tact, this kind of broad sweep is seen on skinning knives, so perhaps it is one of these, ritual or otherwise.

[Tim Simmons]

Well it strikes it was made to serve a purpose. It was clearly cared for in a previous collection, does not necessarily make it special. It is so much like other things I have which are serious stuff. It does not have the feel of a domestic item like a betel nut cutter. Unless somebody comes forward with the full low down I could say anthing I might even say African. Which it jolly well could be.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Fernando dear chap it was meant as a joke. It is a big knife for a big ? you would not want to loose the top. Sorry I am British we cannot help ourselves.

I have been searching too. As you have read I went for it thinking it was African. I wonder? If I was right in the first place

Well Tim, i was like the fool on the bridge!
I have noticed the smily , but also thaught of a mispeling, like you telling me not to go off top-ic.
Portuguese also play with words, only you have the advantage of mother language
Concerning the knife, i align on the queue for the Oriental version ... i know pretty well that you are on the African side.
BTW i am circumsized myself ... and still up top ... ic .
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Fernando how sad for a minute I thought you were on my side. Historically Portugal is Britain's oldest ally.
I suppose somebody could have collected a domestic knife and painted it in varnish to preserve it.

Or a bit like the Afghan Lohar sugar hammer. I have go one of those too sugar hammer that is.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Fernando how sad for a minute I thought you were on my side. Historically Portugal is Britain's oldest ally.
I suppose somebody could have collected a domestic knife and painted it in varnish to preserve it.

Or a bit like the Afghan Lohar sugar hammer. I have go one of those too sugar hammer that is.

Just keep your faith. You will end up finding this piece is one of the most rare and precious specimens you ever got.
You see i am giving you all the strenght. That's what allies are for

[Emanuel]

Hello Tim,

I was perusing through the Oriental-Arms archive and I stubbled on to this interesting Afghan blade, very similar to your chopper: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1036 it has the same rounded serrations on the back and the curved, clipped point.
Here are some of the pics.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

Now that is very interesting, fantastic recall. The similarity is unquestionable. I have not seen the use of the Indian ebony "coromandel wood" on Afghan items.
On my example the line cut in the blade and stamp are seen on the Afghan/ entral Asian knife with the ivory handle I post earlier. Does anybody feel it would be unreasonable to assume this has been sorted completely? Is it or is it not a weapon? any knife is a weapon?

more pics here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

[Tim Simmons]

I wonder if these knives and my example in particular are to do with "QURBANI" I only say this because although a deadly thing, I do have some doubt about a field and battle hardiness but one can find a great deal of lightweight slashing weapons in less affluent areas.

[Emanuel]

I'm thinking this could work for beheading a chicken or maybe even a goat, but it's too small to tackle a bull. Maybe this is still a ram-dao type but reserved for smaller animals
They'd look pretty darn wicked and vicious if they were full sword-sized.

[fearn]

Here's an another off-the-wall idea: it's a rochin, from the Matayoshi tradition of kobudo. I just saw this a few days ago, and thanks for bringing this thread up where I could make the connection.

Check out this YouTube video , and look at the weapon nearest the teacher's right knee. It's a long-handled, short-bladed, dao-like weapon about the length of the man's forearm, and the back is wavy. Matayoshi reportedly learned the weapon in China. For those interested, the "dao" rochin is discussed around 4:15 into the video.

Just a thought,

F

[Tim Simmons]

fearn, interesting thought.
China does have a border with Afghanistan and India. The weapon in the video is very much heavier than the two knives we are looking at here so I would dismiss that as an origin. However there could be some link in the weapon from Oriental arms archive, ref- the guard as seen on many Chinese border lands Dha/Dao. I think you have really opened things. One could see a relation between the Nepalese sacrificial knife from a link in the thread, to the most recently post knife and mine. We could be looking at a meeting of south and east. The one with a guard does seem to suggest a utility knife or possible weapon.

In an earlier time without todays set political borders the Afghan/Chinese border would just be part of central Asia? does this add up?

The Nepalese sacrificial knife, just to refresh the memory. Think NE Nepal, Tibet, China and so on mixed up
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...24192/en1.html

[Tim Simmons]

Any idea what knives are used in the preparation of a sky burial? or am I really loosing it!!!!

Go to the section "disassembling the body" a few comments on the knife. Not very helpful but hint at a specialist tool?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

[Tim Simmons]

Before retiring for the night I would just like to add; you cannot deny that there is something here with the two examples shown.

[katana]

Hi Tim,
did you notice this....

"......A kartika is a small, symbolic crescent knife or 'chopper', used in Buddhist ceremony. It symbolizes the severance of all material and worldly bonds and is crowned with a vajra or dorje, which is said to destroy ignorance, and leads to enlightenment. In Buddhist teachings, this tool is held in the right hand of Yama, the conqueror of death. It is also used in Feng Shui."


From this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartika_%28knife%29

And following on from that...
"....The Kartika (Skt.) or curved knife symbolises the cutting of conventional wisdom by the ultimate insight into emptiness. Is is usually present as a pair, together with the skullcup, filled with wisdom nectar. On a more simple level, the skull is a reminder of (our) impermanence. Between the knife and the handle is a makara-head, a mythical monster.[23]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6d



The chopper is one of the most prominent weapons used by Buddhism's angry deities, both male and female. Continuously brandished by them or simply carried in their hands, its purpose is to chop up disbelievers.

This curved flaying-knife is modeled on the Indian ' knife of the butchers', used for skinning animal hides. The gibbous crescent of its blade, which terminates in a sharp point or curved hook, combines the flaying implements of a cutting-knife and scraping blade, and the piercing activity of a dagger or pulling-hook. The blade's crescent is used for cutting through flesh and scraping it clean, separating the outer and inner as 'appearance and emptiness'. The sharp hook or point of the blade is used for the more delicate acts of flaying: the initial incising of the carcass, the pulling out of veins and tendons, and cutting around the orifices of the skin.




Regards David

[fearn]

Skip. Point was already made. Fun discussion!

[Tim Simmons]

I have been thinking about these two knives all day. Perhaps they are just simple skinning and butchery knives from North India or Nepal and there abouts. They could come into collections through the great 19th century desire to hunt and obtain trophies, heads or hides. One thing for sure the Great White Hunter would not process the kill. The poor wallah that had to do the task may well have been vegetarian so a knife carrying symbols that nod to religious and spiritual cleansing would be good "Karma" and all that stuff. The knife could have relevance outside of working for the Great White Hope. In a world without large industrial meat production and many low caste people that may be vegetarian but still expected to process animals for meat and bone and leather, I think it only makes sense that the tools of the trade would have these symbols. All assuming the decorations do have the meanings discussed earlier.

One could google skinning knives and make very basic comparisons.

[Tim Simmons]

Ended. Alone similar lines but not the same? more the RAMBO hunting saw back thing? I think it does show that the crenalations in the other discussed items do carry some meaning.

[Tim Simmons]

Another one the same size blade.

http://www.fieldserviceantiquearms.c...-dao-237-p.asp