Kukri for coments

[fernando]

The seller sugests XIX century.
Its blade measures 32,5 cms ( 12 3/4" ).
The handle is surely bone ... seller says it's whitened (?)
The scabbard is quite tired, in artificial leather.
Would this piece be Nepalese or Indian?
Could it be as old as sugested ?
Coments will be much apreciated.
fernando

[spiral]

Hi Fernando,

Definatly 20th century, hard to date though, anwhere from c.1910 to early 1940s.

If the scabbard is rexin fake leather thats 1940s & definatly Indian.

Not certan but looks like Nepali/Indian work as seen around Darjeeling, But thats just based on seeing examples like that from that area, perhaps they made them in places I havent seen as well?

Its not a high quality kukri, most bone {not all sambar antler & old Buffalo Shin bone from beasts over 15 years old is very strong} but sadley including that one makes a poor kukri handle.

The blade was made by a skilled kami but its still not truly a good spiecimein, Perhaps I am a kukri snob? I dont know, I like many of them, but I like them to be capable of hard use & look good as well.

The handle on that one wouldnt not take hard use. Many like this were sold to soldiers in British army stationed in Darjeeling/Assam area, so they had a kukri to bring back to England.


Spiral

[fernando]

Thank you Spiral, i got the lesson.
fernando

[fernando]

I think these new pictures are now more clarifying. The previous ones were taken with a mobile phone, by the seller.

I would still expect this piece is older than WW1 or 2. I was told it was part of a collection gathered between 1900-1920, and the other collected items detected, are from beg. to mid-end XIX century. Such collection was split and sold out by third generation heirs.

I would like to receive a new apreciation on this kukri, with these new pictures. The scabbard is stitched with some non cotton material, probably sinew or gut. Amazingly it looks like this material has created some "verdigris" like stain on the scabbard wood laths ( this the term?). The scabbard has no signs of having had a chape, but my eyes are those of an ignorant in these things. Also i am not quite certain that its cover material is artificial or some kind of morocco leather. It surely shows signs of age, and i would say it shrank through time, becoming shorter than the wood linings. It also looks to have been actively used during a long period.
As for the blade, i hope the pictures talk by themselves. I just couldn't get a better macro of what looks to be a maker's mark or the like. Such sort of punction looks much too mechanic to be a steel fault, but i ignore if kukris ever had makers marks.
This piece's weight is 496 grams.
I assume i know nothing about this specific weaponry, but looking to the usage it has endured, i can not see it to be a piece made in recent times, with a purpose to be sold for a souvenir.
I can see it is not a high quality piece, but that wouldn't avoid it was a field weapon ... i maybe talking nonsense here.

I would love to hear some new coments on this kukri, for which i would be so much obliged.

Fernando

[inveterate]

I would think this Kukri to be made between 1925 - 1950s. Rod

[spiral]

mmmm Im happy to look again Fernando, but realy the intial pictures left no doubt. If you read my words you can see I wasnt uncertan.

But on the posotive it to me Looks like real leather with gut stiching .... Does the kukri actualy fit it though? It looks like its to short? but that might just be the photo. A picture of it layed on top of the scabbard would reveal more.

Thats Poor quality bone handle. Very thin ill fitting buttcap. All poorly finnished.

Blade made by expert but done fast. Kaudi all out of alignment.

Thats not a deliberate marking, if they mark them its very obvious, thats a mark from rough steel, rough anvill or cleaned up pitting. Or possible a combination of the above even.

It could I think just about be pre 1920 but no one who grew up using kukri {villagers.] would want it. More likely late 30s early 40s I think for a tourist or Brit soldier who new no better

Its a kukri, but its not a good example, no serious kukri collecter would pay more than for it than the price of a cheap steak & a bottle of wine for 2. & thats at the exrtreme, normaly it would be nearly unsaleable to an expierienced collector.

There is no way its 19th century,

if you like it thats cool, I know there not may kukri in Portugal., But personaly if I was you I would have tried to get Tims one if you wanted a solid example. Thats worth the price.Yours realy isnt.

Or start looking at ebay.....

Sorry I am happy to see people wanting a kukri, but thats definatly a "starter piece" nothing else. A good kukri you would be amazed at in comparison.....

I hope you get one one day, They can be realy good.I like people to find the pleasur of quality kukri.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but realy I couldnt tell you anything different about it with this one.

Better luck next time...

Sorry

Cheers,
Spiral

[fernando]

Thank you very much for caring, Jonathan.
I wasn't expecting that, new pictures, all of a sudden would make this kukri become a fine luxury piece. However a touch here and there could eventualy unblacken some of its previous evaluation ... like the cover being leather and its stitching being gut, which made my day.
The bright side is that it sure isn't a light weight series production replica for decoration purposes, like the two examples i had before and disposed of.
As per attached pictures, the kukri fits well into the wooden sheath ... only the thin leather cover has certainly shrunk, causing the wood lining to pop out a bit; rather than the cover being missing some mouth part, i would say.
It's a pitty that this specimen is not so old as i expected and have been told, although there is a significant date span between your best prognosis, pre-1920 and the worst 1950 of Inveterate, in terms relative to end 19th century and nowadays.
I was most infuenced by the fact that, to my eyes, the handle shows some age patination and the scabbard shows significant wearing, whereas the items i frequently see, which are intentionally made to sell directly to tourists (or soldiers), will be kept resting inside drawers or hanging on walls, keeping an intact aspect.
I know the butt cap as a lousy look, i purposely sowed it off in picture; however so lousy that i admited it could have been a replacement.
The bone handle being weak and the kaudi being off alignment weren't enough signs of an ungenuine piece, for me. I thaught that, like in several other cases, poor people have poor weapons (as other stuff ), and whealthy people have finer weapons ... one not taking the veracity of the other.
Handles can be replaced or repaired, kaudis are just symbolic ... no need to be accurate.
I wasn't aware that kukri makers maintain the same demand for fineness of utensiles materials and finishing, independently of their social extract.
I am glad that this isn't anyway an artificial specimen, as i am not worried if it is a less solid or "unmilitary" example. But the uncertainty or, should i say, certainty about its modernity, will comdemn it to be a disposeable piece to my eyes, which will some day be an item to swap or sell off.
I must say i wasn't intentioning to be a kukry collector. It was just because this one was on my way, and i like variety in collecting, instead of favouring thematics. Maybe the next example that crosses my way is a fine piece ... and i have the cash to buy it.
Jonathan, in a previous posting you have said this kukri was made in India, based on my suspicion that the cover material was artificial. Do you still say this is an Indian kukri ? Sorry to insist, but i would like to know its correct provenance .
I am so much obliged for your tolerant feeding my need for knowledge in this field of kukris.
Kind regards.
fernando

[Andreas Volk]

Originally Posted by fernando

...although there is a significant date span between your best prognosis, pre-1920 and the worst 1950 of Inveterate, in terms relative to end 19th century and nowadays.
....

Hi Fernando
dating Kukri is a tricky thing, as not many written accounts nor research does exist today. So what researchers do is they look for pieces with a provenance and take a note of all their features and use those features to make conclusions on kukris that turn up.
This gives you the relatively long time spans we are struggeling with today.

A few thoughts on your kukri from my side. From my observations I think we can exclude end of the 19th cent. The wider bolster (those pre-1900 pieces can have very thin bolsters) and the pommel cap with the raised keeper seems to come up arround WW1.
Deep fullering seems to die out shortly after WW2 and can be found all the time before.

I your piece is defintely a "villager" kukri - not made as a military piece. Bone was extremely rare for fighting kukri and a better fitting between handle and bolster was required.
The reason why spiral is mentioning "souvenir" is that kukris with bone handles and quite well made blades, show up as "WW2 bring back". Of course they could be made earlier and these antiques bought by soldiers in that area, but the quite larger number of them suggests that a "market" existed for such pieces during that time.
That does not mean that those can be compared to todays souvenirs - soldiers know what to look at on a knife. Those were functional pieces and so is yours.

As an example please allow me to add two examples from my collcetion. No1 is as well a bone handled piece. Actually in a classical style (sirupate) and it
came in a traditional scabbard (even with the red buttons - not on picture).
The thin bolster would suggest some age but the "stamped in" decoration does not, nor the hastly made kauri.
A similar piece turned up that to the information of its owner was purched on an indian basar arround 1960.
So those features would suggest that my piece is either a left-over from said souvenirs or even later.

The 2nd one does not have much in common with yours - but I want to use it to create some comparison to yours. The fullering is quite deep which is a feature it shares with your piece.
The bolster is even wider, the kauri smaller but made with more detail than the one on my bone handled.
It is made from sheer steel which was stopped being produced after WW2. In the pouch of its sheath coins from WW2 were found. Of course it could have been in use long before WW2 and the coins left by its latest user - but the small kauri and the wide bolster don't suggest so.
These features make this one a mid 1930s to WW2 piece.

Applying a comparison of these features discussed with yours lead me to:
1920 - WW2. Looking at kauri and grip design a pre 1920 seems very unlikely to me.
A post 1945 manufacture can't be excluded ... but looking at bolster and fullering the chance that it was made before or during WW2 seems bigger to me than post WW2.
I'm sorry but that is the "most accurate" age guess I can come up with.

Looking at the scabbard - I'd like to 2nd Spirals question if that is the original one. And even if it fits, we can't exclude that it got a new scabbard.
So focusing on the blade this is the best I can come up with.

Hope that was of some help

Andreas

[Jim McDougall]

Where is John Powell these days!!! Has anyone heard from him? I think his research on the kukri was not only comprehensive but profound and he was I believe working on a book on them.

[fernando]

Thank you very much indeed, Andreas.
I am starting to get an impulse to tell the seller that he has cheated me. He assured me that this piece was gathered by a certain collector by latest 1920. Now i see that this piece didn't even exist in that period. In this case i don't reject the idea that the scabbard was probably an old ( older ?) item that was added to this kukri, which would have been unsheathed at a certain stage.
So this is an Indian kukri, not Nepalese, right?
And is its style called Sirupate ?
Thanks again for sharing examples from your collection.
Kind regards
fernando

[Andreas Volk]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you very much indeed, Andreas.
I am starting to get an impulse to tell the seller that he has cheated me. He assured me that this piece was gathered by a certain collector by latest 1920 .... So this is an Indian kukri, not Nepalese, right?
And is its style called Sirupate ? ...
fernando

Hi Fernando.
Sorry if I caused some confusion here - the "sirupate" reffered to my bone handled piece. Sirupate are defined by a very slender blade profile where it
is hard to tell the "widest" part of the blade (belly).
My bone handled piece borrows a lot from this slender, thin waisted style -
I would not call yours a sirupate.
The style you show to my knowledge has been arround from between that wars until even after WW2.

When you mention 1900 to 1920 as the time when said collection was gathered - that looks like a very "rough" assessment to me as well.
As I said - I can't exclude that this if from the early 1920s (and spiral would not even exclude WW1).
I can't recall a WW1 kukri with the features shown by your piece - but spiral has handled a lot more kukri than I have.

those "soldier souvenir kukris" that show up during WW2 have been sold in India. To my information Nepal was still a type of "forbidden kingdom" then.
If those smiths manufacturing pieces for the indian basars where of nepalese descent or even nepalese immigrants I don't know.
Maybe another forumite has some info on the backround of these kamis.

With the scabbard being leather one pointer to these "indian WW souvenirs" goes away.

sorry that I can't be more precise - I understand the need for precise time frames and clear statements about the origin - but with your piece this is
hard to do.
All I can do is listing the features and refer them to pieces where I have info about origin and time of manufacture.

Andreas

[Ronald]

Hello Fernando and all other forum-members,

In Nepali / Ghorkali language Sirupati literally means "lilly leaf". It is said, that it was mainly used in West Nepal, while in the East the broad-bladed Kukuri were used. But please don't consider this as an "iron rule"! One finds both versions all over the country. The Sirupati not only has narrow blade, but it is often much shorter. It might be rather strongly curved or not. You see: The exist many variations, and the National Museum in Kathmandu shows them all.


Kind regards,

Ronald

[Ronald]

Hello Fernando and all other forum-members,

in Nepali / Ghorkali language Sirupati literally means "lilly leaf". It is said, that it was mainly used in West Nepal, while in the East the broad-bladed Kukuri were used. But please don't consider this as an "iron rule"! One finds both versions all over the country. The Sirupati not only has narrow blade, but it is often much shorter. It might be rather strongly curved or not. You see: The exist many variations, and the National Museum in Kathmandu shows them all.


Kind regards,

Ronald

[fernando]

I am sorry i have forgotten to attach in my posting #7 pictures of kukri blade in comparison to scabbard dimensions, as sugested by Jonathan.
Thanks
Fernando

[spiral]

I think its possibly from Darjeeling area Fernando, A Nepali enclave in India. But thats only because I have seen similar from there. But It is just an opinion or idea.

Andreas`s points are excelent..... Rod also has great expierience.

In conclusian I think, From Darjeeling area, 1920 to 1945. But I wont rule out post 1910 or Rods, 1950s either. although I think both extremes are doubtfull.

I think the scabbard was made for a differnt kukri probabably.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Where is John Powell these days!!! Has anyone heard from him? I think his research on the kukri was not only comprehensive but profound and he was I believe working on a book on them.

Unfortuanatly Jim a lot of Johns information which was great pioneering work at the time has prooved rather innacurate in places after more research. He tried to have all his work on the net deleted or updated but sadley some people refused to do so apparently. He has stated on a forum elswere that it should be ignored. Most of it was compiled during his early research many years ago.

.He said to me last December he still reads the forums, but sadley doesnt particpate at the time bieng.The vast majority of his collection has been sold over the past 2 years. Including the rarest & most outstanding pieces

Unfourtuantly some of Ronalds points were part of those intial errors.

Originally Posted by Ronald

In Nepali / Ghorkali language Sirupati literally means "lilly leaf". It is said, that it was mainly used in West Nepal, while in the East the broad-bladed Kukuri were used. But please don't consider this as an "iron rule"! One finds both versions all over the country. The Sirupati not only has narrow blade, but it is often much shorter. It might be rather strongly curved or not. You see: The exist many variations, and the National Museum in Kathmandu shows them all.

Hello Ranald, Nice to find someone else who likes kukris here!

I must point out that Siru is a type of long slender grass not a lilly.

In Nepalese. Lily is "Kamal"

But indeed your correct that pati is leaf...


Sirupate kukri were originaly mostly favoured by the Rai & Limbu tribes of eastern Nepal, The western tribes prefered broader bladed kukri, but as you say both are found throughout Nepal.

Getting the east west identification the wrong way originated from JPs piece on Sword Furom, I think?

Sirupati come in many lengths I have them with 11inch to 18 inch blades within my collection. several around the 15 to 16 inch mark.

Your right the National museam in Kathmadu is amazing! Have you been there? I spent 2 days there but could have spent weeks. So many fascinating pieces....


Spiral

[fernando]

Thank you so much, Andreas, Ronald and Jonathan ... and Jim
The order was aleatory
I can't complain for lack of support on this thread.
Now all i have to do is digest all the info, wondering whether such amount of input is more valuable than my humble kukri .
Thanks again
Fernando