Dutch sword?

[jonng]

Hi All,

This sword was collected in Lombok in the 80's. Appreciate if anyone can provide more info and confirm if it's Dutch. Thanks!

jonathan

[ariel]

Rather interesting how the concave tip reminds of the Berber swords...

[Jim McDougall]

Yes Ariel..it is very interesting.

[Henk]

It is Dutch. This is a M1852 infantry officers sabre. Scabbard is a replacement. The original scabbard is a white metal sabre scabbard.
Notice that the wire of the grip is gone.

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Jonng,
Most interesting sword and as you have indicated it is provenanced to probable regions in Indonesia, certainly has strong likelihood to be a regulation sword from the Netherlands. While military swords themselves are of course not ethnographic, they often are strongly associated in that they often found use by native groups in whole, or in part in the use of the blades.

The hilt form on this sword suggests it is likely a regulation pattern of a general pattern adopted by many countries and often followed early 19th century French neoclassic forms. The best reference to check on such typology for Dutch weapons would be "Blanke Wapens" (J.P.Puype, Amsterdam, 1981). While typically one would presume military weapons found in Indonesia might be naval swords as it was of course a maritime trade colony, it is well known that army occupational forces were of course also prevalent. Since there do not seem to be naval devices in the motif, it seems likely this may belong to the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army (KNIL) and may have seen service in such conflicts as the Padri War (1821-1845); the Java War (1825-1830) and the Aceh War (1873-1901).
(my thanks to Bill Marsh who provided this data in his post on 'klewang' dated 3/12/07 )

As Ariel has noted, the unusual profiling on the tip of the blade is very much like that seen on the 'Berber' sabres that we have discussed over so many years. In recent discussions, there has been compelling evidence that suggests these distinctly patterned swords may be other than the suggested Moroccan associated identification, and might even have provenance as far as Indonesian. As always, more research needed!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hey Henk!!!!
Ya got me!!!
Your post came up just as I posted mine!!!
Thank you for the ID.....did you use the Puype book? I wish I had it handy.

All the best,
Jim

[Henk]

Hello Jim,

Indeed we just crossed. No I didn't used the book in this case, although I have it on the shell.

I googled (in dutch of course) and came on a dutch site and found the sabre, but I'm convinced it is in the Puype-book.

Regards, Henk

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Henk, Nice call!!

All best,
Jim

[jonng]

Thank you guys!
Info much appreciated.

B/rgds,
Jonathan

[jonng]

Hi Henk,

Sorry to trouble you. Is the leather scabbard a local replacement? The metal tip seems to match. There is also a worn off marking of a crown? above a shield? on the blade very near the guard and a small letter A? to it's right. "A" for Amsterdam?

Jonathan

[Henk]

Hi Jonathan,

You don't trouble me at all. Discussing and learning on this forum is a pleasure for me.

The leather scabbard might be a local replacement. Your scabbard is the scabbard of a KNIL klewang. So what is the meaning of a local replacement? Was the scabbard changed because of practical reason by the officer who worn this sabre, or was the original scabbard lost and replaced by the klewang scabbard? But I think a Dutch soldier could order a new scabbard. We have also the last option, a local picked up the sabre, picked up the klewang scabbard and found out that the two items made a perfect match.
I picked up a picture of the original scabbard of your sabre to give you an idea how the scabbard looked like.

The picture of the markings is not clear enough for me. It looks indeed like a crown above a shield. And the "A" for Amsterdam? Just guessing. Maybe one of the other forummembers can tell us more about the marks.