Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

Richard Furrer · 24th September 2007, 04:41 PM

Lemmy,
I heard about a smith geting permission and using the Windsor iron in some work..I assume that is you.
Nice bit of work there.

I have done a bit of work with meteorites over the years as well..no keris though.
http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index....meteorite+ingo

Ric Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI

A. G. Maisey · 24th September 2007, 10:18 PM

Richard, I attempted to access your pics, but cannot get to them. Some sort of "not a member" thing.

By what you have written it looks as if you smelted the meteoritic material.

I've worked meteoritic material a number times and have only ever done it in the forge. You just bring it together gently to begin, after about 3 or 4 welds its more or less stable, and it takes about 7 welds to get it nice and clean. Then it has been welded in with old iron. Where I've used it in a keris it has been used as the pamor layers, where I've used it in damascus it was welded with 01.

Haven't done any of this work for a few years. From memory I started to work with it about 1986 or 1988, and did the last bit about 1996 or 1997.I used Arizona meteorite, and really, its no big trick to work the stuff, as long as you stay gentle till it comes together. Get too heavy handed early, and it comes apart under the hammer like cottage cheese.

Back about 12 or 14 years ago I supplied a quantity of meteoritic material , ready to be used as pamor material to a pandai keris in Solo. He made two keris using this material. The first one was sold to ---I think---the Ambassador to Indonesia for Venezuela, I have the second one. Both these keris used a damascus core.

lemmythesmith · 24th September 2007, 10:59 PM

Hi Michel, Hope your patrem forging is going well!! I'll have to weigh the blade and let you know-got to do it for my own records, but it's not very heavy. I don't tend to do too much stock removal as my forging background is more orientated to the Japanese sword which are wholly forged so I set out to make keris the same way (fool)...MUCH harder than forging a wakizashi!!

Hi Richard, I'm afraid I'm not the smith you've heard about with the Windsor iron! I got the piece I have from a guy I knew who went to Ironbridge looking for some iron to make tsuba. He was directed to a pile of twisted, blackened and corroded girders which he managed to beg a piece of-half of which he ended up swapping with me for some damascus.... Tried the site with the pics but can't access them, only just registered with that forum so I'll take a look at them when my details are processed.

Hi Alan, thanks!! (always nice to get another smiths praise!) I must have a go at further refining the meteorite, I've tended to take it to welding heat and consolidate it into a bar, draw it down and layer it with terrestrial wrought. Does weld nicely though, I prefer it to welding pure nickel even though it's not as bright. Sounds like you've used Canyon Diablo from Arizona, that one does tend to have a lot of silicate inclusions in it but it really impresses when you can show people a photo of that hole it left in the desert!! Campo Del Cielo seems to take a bit of beating before it disintegrates- Much cheaper too.

Thanks David and Raden!!

A. G. Maisey · 25th September 2007, 12:26 AM

Yeah, it was Canyon Diablo, and it cost me a fortune. Back then there was no internet or ebay to buy from, so you hunted the stuff from mineral dealers who charged and arm and a leg for a handfull of tiny little bits. I didn't ever start with one lump of the stuff, it was always a handful of little bits , the biggest maybe half inch square, that I brought together in the forge until sticky, then gently tapped together.Finished product was OK though.

Never ever found welding nickel difficult, even in coke. Second bit of damascus I ever made included nickel.

With meteorite and also with any old iron, I always like to wash the material until I get no sparks off it.With the meteoritic stuff this was around 7 or 8 welds, with hot short old wheel rims its probably about the same, but with good quality wrought iron from carriage strapping, or similar , three or four welds might be sufficient.

PenangsangII · 25th September 2007, 03:13 AM

Dear Lemmy,

The the forging process, did you also imbue the keris with the spiritual contents?

Richard Furrer · 25th September 2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Richard, I attempted to access your pics, but cannot get to them. Some sort of "not a member" thing.

By what you have written it looks as if you smelted the meteoritic material.

.

Yes indeed I did melt it...its my "thing".
I used Nantan meteorite from China and it has 6-7% nickel...the color tone from 7% is not too different from 2% so I diluted it to 2% with iron and added enough carbon to bring it to about 0.6%...thus making an ingot of good steel.

Sorry about not being able to access Don Fogg's discussion site...I need to place all that on my website...its on the list of things to do.

I never found the folding in the raw meteorite all that efficient...with some space rocks its not possible as they are too full of crud to work in that fassion....BUT...that is more traditional.

Ric

lemmythesmith · 26th September 2007, 09:53 PM

Hi Penangsang, I'm afraid not!!

Seriously though, you do have to have a certain mental preparation to make blades otherwise mistakes and disasters ensue! (and some real good burns)

Hi Alan, when you say you wash the iron until there are no sparks do you mean as in grinding the metal or does it get to full welding heat without any of the usual "lazy" sparks that come from wrought at that temperature? Sounds like a good indicator to know, I've usually washed iron so that when it's cut with the hot chisel it will fold back on itself without breaking, I'm always interested to learn new techniques!

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2007, 10:55 PM

Lemmy, the cut and fold test is something that will work with hotshort material, but just because you can do this, it doesn't necessarily mean that the material is clean.When you take dirty material up towards weld heat it throws off lots of little sparks when you whack it, when it is clean these little sparks drop to an absolute minimum , or even none at all, what you have is a nice dense billet of material that is easy to work, and that you can do anything with. Similarly, in the fire the material tends not to throw off much in the way of sparks when it gets to weld heat, so if you're using coke or charcoal, you need to find another way to give you an indication of when its ready to take the weld. I normally use a 4lb. hammer to take a weld, and when the material is stuck, I give it another heat, put the billet under a hold-down tool, and use a ten or twelve pound hammer to consolidate the weld and draw it out; when material is dirty, that initial bringing together of the material throws out a lot of sparks from dirty material, when the material is clean, you might get just a few little stars.You can actually feel the difference under the hammer:- the clean material is sort of like hitting velvet. I'm talking about forge processes here, nothing at all to do with grinding. Folding back on itself, I do not use the hot chisel to allow the fold to be made, this is too slow, I use the edge of the anvil to put a crease in the material, then bend the bar down over the offside of the anvil, this gives you a right angle, which you can close down to the other arm on top of the anvil. Before you close the fold its probably best to get rid of as much scale as you can.Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

Richard Furrer · 28th September 2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

I've seen a lot of bad cakes made by poor bakers with good ovens Alan.

Certain tools make the work possible alone...even profitable....rarely easy.

Still..I wish I had a few strikers at times...some Pamor I have seen are complex and difficlut to replicate.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2007, 10:13 PM

Yeah, strikers can be a Godsend. It gets terribly hard sometimes to handle big material with a hold down tool. Those little mechanical hammers---what do they call them?---an oliver?---can be good too.Of course, the best would be a nice big power hammer, but I doubt it would ever be possible to get your money back on the investment.You'd probably need to stick it in the middle of a five acre paddock too, if you didn't want neighbour problems.

Of course you're right about bad cakes, but gas compared to charcoal or coke---well, its really a walk up start. Compared to coal, where you need to coke the coal before you can weld, there simply is no comparison.Two totally different worlds. I've taught a number of people how to forge weld, and what I've found is this:- with good clean coke, a committed learner, starting from a low knowledge base, will pick it up in about 6 to 8 full working days.With gas, again starting from a low knowledge base, a couple of three or four hour sessions is enough to have a committed learner doing good tight welds.In fact, even my wife can weld in a gas forge. Further, it is possible for a relative new-comer to achieve complex welds in gas that in the heyday of blacksmiths would only have been able to be achieved by extremely talented masters.Gas is cheap, clean, effective and very easy, when compared to any other fuel.

24th September 2007, 04:41 PM	#1
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Lemmy, I heard about a smith geting permission and using the Windsor iron in some work..I assume that is you. Nice bit of work there. I have done a bit of work with meteorites over the years as well..no keris though. http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index....meteorite+ingo Ric Furrer Sturgeon Bay, WI

24th September 2007, 10:18 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,858	Richard, I attempted to access your pics, but cannot get to them. Some sort of "not a member" thing. By what you have written it looks as if you smelted the meteoritic material. I've worked meteoritic material a number times and have only ever done it in the forge. You just bring it together gently to begin, after about 3 or 4 welds its more or less stable, and it takes about 7 welds to get it nice and clean. Then it has been welded in with old iron. Where I've used it in a keris it has been used as the pamor layers, where I've used it in damascus it was welded with 01. Haven't done any of this work for a few years. From memory I started to work with it about 1986 or 1988, and did the last bit about 1996 or 1997.I used Arizona meteorite, and really, its no big trick to work the stuff, as long as you stay gentle till it comes together. Get too heavy handed early, and it comes apart under the hammer like cottage cheese. Back about 12 or 14 years ago I supplied a quantity of meteoritic material , ready to be used as pamor material to a pandai keris in Solo. He made two keris using this material. The first one was sold to ---I think---the Ambassador to Indonesia for Venezuela, I have the second one. Both these keris used a damascus core.

24th September 2007, 10:59 PM	#3
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, Hope your patrem forging is going well!! I'll have to weigh the blade and let you know-got to do it for my own records, but it's not very heavy. I don't tend to do too much stock removal as my forging background is more orientated to the Japanese sword which are wholly forged so I set out to make keris the same way (fool)...MUCH harder than forging a wakizashi!! Hi Richard, I'm afraid I'm not the smith you've heard about with the Windsor iron! I got the piece I have from a guy I knew who went to Ironbridge looking for some iron to make tsuba. He was directed to a pile of twisted, blackened and corroded girders which he managed to beg a piece of-half of which he ended up swapping with me for some damascus.... Tried the site with the pics but can't access them, only just registered with that forum so I'll take a look at them when my details are processed. Hi Alan, thanks!! (always nice to get another smiths praise!) I must have a go at further refining the meteorite, I've tended to take it to welding heat and consolidate it into a bar, draw it down and layer it with terrestrial wrought. Does weld nicely though, I prefer it to welding pure nickel even though it's not as bright. Sounds like you've used Canyon Diablo from Arizona, that one does tend to have a lot of silicate inclusions in it but it really impresses when you can show people a photo of that hole it left in the desert!! Campo Del Cielo seems to take a bit of beating before it disintegrates- Much cheaper too. Thanks David and Raden!!

25th September 2007, 12:26 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,858	Yeah, it was Canyon Diablo, and it cost me a fortune. Back then there was no internet or ebay to buy from, so you hunted the stuff from mineral dealers who charged and arm and a leg for a handfull of tiny little bits. I didn't ever start with one lump of the stuff, it was always a handful of little bits , the biggest maybe half inch square, that I brought together in the forge until sticky, then gently tapped together.Finished product was OK though. Never ever found welding nickel difficult, even in coke. Second bit of damascus I ever made included nickel. With meteorite and also with any old iron, I always like to wash the material until I get no sparks off it.With the meteoritic stuff this was around 7 or 8 welds, with hot short old wheel rims its probably about the same, but with good quality wrought iron from carriage strapping, or similar , three or four welds might be sufficient.

25th September 2007, 03:13 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear Lemmy, The the forging process, did you also imbue the keris with the spiritual contents?

26th September 2007, 09:53 PM	#7
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Penangsang, I'm afraid not!! Seriously though, you do have to have a certain mental preparation to make blades otherwise mistakes and disasters ensue! (and some real good burns) Hi Alan, when you say you wash the iron until there are no sparks do you mean as in grinding the metal or does it get to full welding heat without any of the usual "lazy" sparks that come from wrought at that temperature? Sounds like a good indicator to know, I've usually washed iron so that when it's cut with the hot chisel it will fold back on itself without breaking, I'm always interested to learn new techniques!

26th September 2007, 10:55 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,858	Lemmy, the cut and fold test is something that will work with hotshort material, but just because you can do this, it doesn't necessarily mean that the material is clean.When you take dirty material up towards weld heat it throws off lots of little sparks when you whack it, when it is clean these little sparks drop to an absolute minimum , or even none at all, what you have is a nice dense billet of material that is easy to work, and that you can do anything with. Similarly, in the fire the material tends not to throw off much in the way of sparks when it gets to weld heat, so if you're using coke or charcoal, you need to find another way to give you an indication of when its ready to take the weld. I normally use a 4lb. hammer to take a weld, and when the material is stuck, I give it another heat, put the billet under a hold-down tool, and use a ten or twelve pound hammer to consolidate the weld and draw it out; when material is dirty, that initial bringing together of the material throws out a lot of sparks from dirty material, when the material is clean, you might get just a few little stars.You can actually feel the difference under the hammer:- the clean material is sort of like hitting velvet. I'm talking about forge processes here, nothing at all to do with grinding. Folding back on itself, I do not use the hot chisel to allow the fold to be made, this is too slow, I use the edge of the anvil to put a crease in the material, then bend the bar down over the offside of the anvil, this gives you a right angle, which you can close down to the other arm on top of the anvil. Before you close the fold its probably best to get rid of as much scale as you can.Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

28th September 2007, 10:13 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,858	Yeah, strikers can be a Godsend. It gets terribly hard sometimes to handle big material with a hold down tool. Those little mechanical hammers---what do they call them?---an oliver?---can be good too.Of course, the best would be a nice big power hammer, but I doubt it would ever be possible to get your money back on the investment.You'd probably need to stick it in the middle of a five acre paddock too, if you didn't want neighbour problems. Of course you're right about bad cakes, but gas compared to charcoal or coke---well, its really a walk up start. Compared to coal, where you need to coke the coal before you can weld, there simply is no comparison.Two totally different worlds. I've taught a number of people how to forge weld, and what I've found is this:- with good clean coke, a committed learner, starting from a low knowledge base, will pick it up in about 6 to 8 full working days.With gas, again starting from a low knowledge base, a couple of three or four hour sessions is enough to have a committed learner doing good tight welds.In fact, even my wife can weld in a gas forge. Further, it is possible for a relative new-comer to achieve complex welds in gas that in the heyday of blacksmiths would only have been able to be achieved by extremely talented masters.Gas is cheap, clean, effective and very easy, when compared to any other fuel.