Between Solo and Yogya

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Raden, I dont quite understand, why Raden Ronggo had to be sacrificed to the Ratu Laut Selatan. If he was so powerful, definitely he was an asset to the kingdom, wasnt he?

dear Penangsang II,

Raden Ronggo was not sacrified to the Queen of South Sea. In Jawa, it is different. The act to offer (ing)[?] sacrifation to the Queen of South Sea will be considered as "munjung" (I dont know the translation "munjung" in english). Someone who do "munjung" are usually because they want to be rich by shortcut ways [by collaborating with "evil" spirit such as Butoijo (Blue giant), Inthok (no translation), Babi Ngepet (pig which its tail always spin), Kethekputih (White Monkey), Blorong (half human body half snake tail, it is believd by "munjung" to advisor of the Queen of South Sea, called Nyai Roro Kidul).

According to Raden Ronggo. In developing political power point of view, sometimes, someone who has a remakable ability will be considered as a disturbance factor to the established system. It is beyond the capability of the political environment to absorb and to adapt the "remarkable" person's manuvers. It happens till now. For instance, perhaps Datuk Anwar Ibrahim of Malaysia has great vision further and faster than other political actors. For personal achievement, it is remarkable. But in term of political or power movement (corporate point of view), his individual action is considered as a disturbance factor for the whole system. Unhuman but logic, a disturbance factor must be eliminated (erased). If not, there is a possibility that whole system will be collapsed/crimpled[?]. Senopati as A king in New Born Kingdom (or Mahathir as the PM of a 43/45 years old country) knew well how to save greater goals (then by sacrificing individual/smaller satisfaction).

One of the actions of Raden Ronggo. During the banquet for welcoming of King of Banten courtesy visit to Panembahan Senopati, King of Banten asked one of his warrior to perform a spectacle "debus". This warrior invulnerable to swords, keris, tombak and any sharp weapons. To make more impresive, the warrior asked audience to try to hit him by any weapons which they wanted. As a young warrior, Ronggo could not elude from this challence. Raden Ronggo went closer to the warrior and pounded/striked the warrior smoothly with his hand without using sharp weapons. As a result, the warrior's breast broke severely and he died instantly.

It was upsetting his father. Why? Because Banten Kingdom location was in farmost western of Jawa. At that time, Panembahan Senopati wanted to make peace with every Kingdom which were located in western Mataram border. Panembahan Senopati had a plan to launch champaigns to invade kingdoms in eastern Jawa. Panembahan Senopati was very brillyiant. Whilst he declared war to eastern kingdoms, he made peace accords with western ones. Something likes balance of power theory in contemporary politics. The action of his eldest son during the banquet disturbed his hidden agenda: to build an imperium.

Raden Ronggo was sent to the Queen of South Sea. Perhaps, it is euphemism of reality. The intepretation could be: "someone sent (threw away) to the sea (the Queen's palace was in the deep of the sea) means that he senteced dead (either before the law or unlawful)".

warm regards,
Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Salam Raden Usman,

And the story of their great grandfather is rather different from yours, there is no cowardise in the memory of the family.

Salam hangat,
Bram

Kiai Carito,

I am sorry if my story is different from. As I explained before, that is why I need a time to consider for responding or not Gonjo's question. My story could be controvertial one. I am just storyteller. Em... unbravery doesnt mean cowardise, does it?

Please, dont tell my story to your friends. I like to live in peace and harmony

warm salam,
Usmen

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Kiai Carito,

I am sorry if my story is different from. As I explained before, that is why I need a time to consider for responding or not Gonjo's question. My story could be controvertial one. I am just storyteller. Em... unbravery doesnt mean cowardise, does it?

Please, dont tell my story to your friends. I like to live in peace and harmony

warm salam,
Usmen

Raden Usmen,

As far as I know there is no unbravery in scrabble...Maybe Alan can help us here being a true-blue native speaker. But oral history about a crown-prince who lost his throne to another prince is likely to have different nuances depending on which side of the family tells it.

Salam hangat kembali,
Bram

[A. G. Maisey]

Dunno about scrabble---probably depends on the stakes of the game.

But it does take incredible bravery to make some types of remark in public. Particularly if one does not personally know the family and political affiliations of all who might hear, or read those remarks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Raden Usmen,
As far as I know there is no unbravery in scrabble...
Salam hangat kembali,
Bram

Kiai Carito and Kerislovers,

hahahaha... I give up permaturely if criticized about my english language usage. Since I am quite lazy to check what I am writing out dictionary. The logic of Indonesian and Jawa langauges influence my way to express in English, such us using "prefix of negative meaning".

If a languase is an ocean. There are Jawa ocean, Indonesian Ocean, English Ocean, Allemand Ocean, Francais Ocean et cetera et cetera. Till now, perhaps, I can swim but I cannot dive yet. Swimming by simplestyle. However, someday, I hope I can do both swimming and diving. So please help me by correcting every posting I make in term of correct english usage. I will appreciate it.

Thank you for correcting gramatically my posting. Hope you will do it again and again. Then I can learn both keris knowledge and english language through this beloved forum.

warm salam,
Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

to all forumities,

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

from a tombaklover,
Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm here Raden .

Guess everybody else is busy doing something important, but today I'm glued to the computater.

Maybe everybody is outside playing. Waste of time spending good days in front of a computer. I should raise my fees.

What's this "tombak lover" business?

Rather partial to tombakipuns myself, but I don't think I'd bill myself as a tombak lover. Too many clever people could make too many unfortunate remarks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

hi Alan,

to clarify tombak/tombakipun that when I was in Jogja, I prefferred to buy spearheads rather than kerises. first, it was interested me since I knew a synonim of tombak was waos (tooth) while a synonim of keris was curigo (curious). second, it was cheaper than keris.

seemingly, I took a risk to tell about Mataram style of succession. So far, I dont have any motive but to say what I hear for the purpose of historical background in discussing "between Djokja and Solo" (and Mataram).

okay... to all kerislovers, it is time for us to upload tangguh Surakarta and Jogjakarta. please....

Usmen

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm here Raden .

Guess everybody else is busy doing something important, but today I'm glued to the computater.

Maybe everybody is outside playing. Waste of time spending good days in front of a computer. I should raise my fees.

What's this "tombak lover" business?

Rather partial to tombakipuns myself, but I don't think I'd bill myself as a tombak lover. Too many clever people could make too many unfortunate remarks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear friends,

what kind of pamor do you think?
is it jogja or solo?

regards,
Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Pak Usman

Personally, I have no preference between keris and tombak. The work involved in making a tombak is considerably less than in making a keris, but both can equally reflect the skill of the maker. Of all the Javanese wesi aji I have , possibly the finest piece is a tombak by Jayasukadgo; I was able to afford this, but I would have difficulty in affording a keris by the same maker.

In my experience, very few collectors in the western world appreciate the tombak . Which is a bit of a pity.

Yes, I understood that you were only telling a story when you wrote of the succession in Mataram, and honestly, it was quite interesting, but had I been in possession of this knowledge, I would probably not have chosen to make it available on the net.Such an act requires great bravery, which I do not possess.

That is a nice tombak you have shown a pic of. Would it be possible to do a photo that shows the metuk at a 90 degree angle, and another photo full length, so we can see the pawakan?

Alan.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear Alan,

May I open a new thread to focus the discussion on tombak. It may be less interesting to non-Indonesian. Even, amongst Indonesians, tombak is less attractive than keris.

However, it could be as a breakthrough for a "budget collector with budget constraint" like me. Keris is unaffordable since every collector wants to offer the highest bidding to occupy the best one. Keris market price was boomed by overseas collectors and by myths.

warm salam,
Usmen
ps. I assume if you dont respond in 3 minutes, it means you agree that I open a new thread for discussing tombak.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

dear Alan,

May I open a new thread to focus the discussion on tombak. It may be less interesting to non-Indonesian. Even, amongst Indonesians, tombak is less attractive than keris.

However, it could be as a breakthrough for a "budget collector with budget constraint" like me. Keris is unaffordable since every collector wants to offer the highest bidding to occupy the best one. Keris market price was boomed by overseas collectors and by myths.

warm salam,
Usmen
ps. I assume if you dont respond in 3 minutes, it means you agree that I open a new thread for discussing tombak.

Since Alan is probably sleeping as you post this Usman; would a Moderator's permission be sufficient ?

Rick

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Thank you very much, Rick

[cahaya]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

dear friends,

what kind of pamor do you think?
is it jogja or solo?

regards,
Usmen

Hallo Mr. Usmen

can you sent pic close up/fokus at the pamor?
and like Bapak Allan to can we see "pawakan"/full pic tombak?

That is garap PB Mataram Surokarto?? (in my opinion for now)

thanks for sharing your pusoko

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear Cahaya,

I have opened new thread T.O.M.B.A.K
Would you please to see there for additional images.

warm salam,
Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usmen, I tend to disagree with you that collectors outside of Indonesia are the ones who have driven keris prices up.

I have a very close friend in Solo who is possibly one of, if not the biggest wholesaler of quality wesi aji. The prices that he gets at a level where he is selling to other salesmen, are far in advance of anything that I could imagine collectors in the western world being willing to pay.

Truly top quality old keris achieve the best prices in Indonesia, not in New York, Paris, and London.

The generally held belief amongst the people I know is that the primary force in driving up prices on old top quality wesi aji was the rampant corruption in Indonesia that accelerated from the mid-1970's. I do not want to discuss this in public.

Incidentally, as Rick has pointed out, I hold no authority in this discussion group. For permission to commence a thread on a subject other than keris, the correct people to approach are Rick and David.

[David]

It has always been the intention that this forum would be open to the discussion of tombak as well as keris. Therefore no permission is necessary for anyone to open a thread about tombak.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your clarification, David.

I did not know that---or if I once did know it, I'd forgotten.

Where is the dividing line?

Do pedang fall outside the basket?

Wedung?

[David]

hmmm, good question. I had thought Rick laid it out in the opening posts, but going back i see he did not. I know we spoke privately about tombaks being topical to this forum, but i will defer to Rick on where, exactly, the line should be drawn on other weapons.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm, good question. I had thought Rick laid it out in the opening posts, but going back i see he did not. I know we spoke privately about tombaks being topical to this forum, but i will defer to Rick on where, exactly, the line should be drawn on other weapons.

Tombaks are on topic here.
I thought that had been laid out too.
Oh well, I'm certainly no pinnacle of perfection my friends .

The inclusion of other items would tend to distract from our purpose here; plus we'd become just another ethnographic forum .

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

The inclusion of other items would tend to distract from our purpose here; plus we'd become just another ethnographic forum .

Well...we certainly don't want that to happen!

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you gentlemen. I think I have a clear understanding now---I might not have in 6 months time, but at the moment I'm OK.

I had in my mind that we were more or less exclusively keris, that's really the whole reason for our being, but the problem is that lines get a bit blurred sometimes.

Keris and tombak are certainly spiritual brothers, but then keris and some pedang are physical brothers---maybe even spiritual as well.For instance I have pedang with kembang kacang and sogokan, and with luk. Then there are those Bali/Lombok things---what are they called?---ligan. Is this a pedang that is keris-like, or a keris that is pedang-like? What about Lombok cundrik? Blumbangan and sogokan.

Sorry fellers, it gets hard for me. But keris + tombak sounds good for the moment.