Images of the Orient-Weapons included-XVI century

Jens Nordlunde · 19th September 2007, 04:56 PM

Hi Fernando,
I have read your PM, and sent you a mail - thank you very much.
All the best
Jens

Philip · 20th September 2007, 12:26 AM

Hi, Fernando
What a treasure-trove of graphic info! If you publish a translated version on CD, as someone suggests, I'll be in line to buy a copy.

I'm wondering if the author of this work intended this to be used as an intelligence source for subsequent Portuguese conquests in Africa and Asia.

Of course, we need to take artistic license into account when looking at some of the artwork. Note the poor war-elephant in one of the pictures, burdened with castellated howdah packed with what appears to be several squads of soldiers! Reminds me of my college days, trying to see how many drunk guys you can jam into and on a VW beetle and still be able to stay on the road under its own power.

fernando · 20th September 2007, 01:34 AM

Hi Philip
The book had 1500 copies printed, and is actualy sold out.
I am emailing you the legends translation right now.
The CD will follow by mail.
The war elephant will take a bit longer, due to its load

.
I will see if the support texts from the period include arms and armoury quotations
Regards
fernando

rand · 25th September 2007, 07:54 AM

Fernando,

It seems the influence of Europe, in this case Portugal is not illustrated enough currently to makes its effect fully understood. Am sure there are records of visits to Islamic countries and what was sold or given to the rulers there of also.

Just saw one reference of Portugal envoys,

"The Safavid period: Shah Esma@¿^l I (q.v.) showed an interest in the purchase of firearms as early as 907/1502, soon after his enthronement (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 9-10). Yet the Safavid army's failure to use artillery in the battle of Ùa@ldera@n (q.v.) in 920/1514 was largely responsible for its defeat. Shah Esma@¿^l reacted swiftly to remedy this and immediately following the battle appointed his wak^l, Solta@n-H®osayn, as tofang±^-ba@æ^, commander of the musketeers, putting him in charge of forming of a corps of tofang±^s (Bacque‚-Grammont, p. 165; Aubin, p. 118). The results were soon noticeable. The Portuguese envoys visiting Ka@æa@n in 1515-16 observed "forty musketeers bearing muskets of metal" among the welcoming party (Smith, p. 44). By 1517, Esma@¿^l's army is said to have included 8,000 musketeers, and Venetian reports from 1521 and 1522 speak of 12,000 and 15,000 to 20,000 arquebusiers (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 377, 405-6, 533, 545). No figures are available for Shah T®ahma@sb I's reign, yet it is clear that the musketeer corps continued to be active, frequently taking part in campaigns and in the defense of fortresses (¿AÚlama@ra@-ye ˆa@h T®ahma@sb, pp. 64, 78, 123, 157, 181, 193, 204-5, 272, 280, 297, 314, 329, 332, 335, 341, 357, 369, 376-77). By the mid-17th century, observers put the number of musketeers in the Safavid army at 8,000 to 10,000 (Tavernier, I, p. 659) to 12,000 men (Chardin, V, p. 305; Tavernier noted that in times of need, their number could rise to 50,000)."

(an article by Rudi Matthee about the history of firearms in Iran)

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2007, 05:21 PM

Two copies are up for sale at AbeBooks, but as few of us can read old Portuguese, the pictures Fernando have provided us with is far better than what we had before – nothing like this. The poor elephant is a beauty – in those days, elephants really had to work hard for a living

. I have had to change some of my believes, like the spear shown on plate XXXVII. I would

katana · 25th September 2007, 08:20 PM

Hi Fernando
great pictures....very interesting topic, thanks for posting

Regards David

fernando · 25th September 2007, 10:09 PM

Hi Rand
Here are some interesting references, written in english, with lots of action.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...ect01to03.html
regards
fernando

fernando · 27th September 2007, 12:05 AM

Hi Jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Two copies are up for sale at AbeBooks, but as few of us can read old Portuguese, the pictures Fernando have provided us with is far better than what we had before – nothing like this. The poor elephant is a beauty – in those days, elephants really had to work hard for a living

. I have had to change some of my believes, like the spear shown on plate XXXVII. I would

Just curious. Which would be the missing words of your posting?!

fernando · 28th September 2007, 10:10 AM

It looks like i have managed,with help from a coleague, to reformat and transform all the images into three part PDF files. I tested the thing on my own mailbox ant they seem to be sendable. Each image size is 1020x768,which is already larger than the condensed ones in the book,although quite clear ... i don´t remember the real size of these folios, the book is at home and i am not there.
Somebody please "volunteer" to accept these pictures and give me an email adress, so that i can try if it works.
Thanks and regards.
fernando

20th September 2007, 12:26 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	put me on the list.... Hi, Fernando What a treasure-trove of graphic info! If you publish a translated version on CD, as someone suggests, I'll be in line to buy a copy. I'm wondering if the author of this work intended this to be used as an intelligence source for subsequent Portuguese conquests in Africa and Asia. Of course, we need to take artistic license into account when looking at some of the artwork. Note the poor war-elephant in one of the pictures, burdened with castellated howdah packed with what appears to be several squads of soldiers! Reminds me of my college days, trying to see how many drunk guys you can jam into and on a VW beetle and still be able to stay on the road under its own power.

25th September 2007, 07:54 AM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	European Influences Fernando, It seems the influence of Europe, in this case Portugal is not illustrated enough currently to makes its effect fully understood. Am sure there are records of visits to Islamic countries and what was sold or given to the rulers there of also. Just saw one reference of Portugal envoys, "The Safavid period: Shah Esma@¿^l I (q.v.) showed an interest in the purchase of firearms as early as 907/1502, soon after his enthronement (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 9-10). Yet the Safavid army's failure to use artillery in the battle of Ùa@ldera@n (q.v.) in 920/1514 was largely responsible for its defeat. Shah Esma@¿^l reacted swiftly to remedy this and immediately following the battle appointed his wak^l, Solta@n-H®osayn, as tofang±^-ba@æ^, commander of the musketeers, putting him in charge of forming of a corps of tofang±^s (Bacque‚-Grammont, p. 165; Aubin, p. 118). The results were soon noticeable. The Portuguese envoys visiting Ka@æa@n in 1515-16 observed "forty musketeers bearing muskets of metal" among the welcoming party (Smith, p. 44). By 1517, Esma@¿^l's army is said to have included 8,000 musketeers, and Venetian reports from 1521 and 1522 speak of 12,000 and 15,000 to 20,000 arquebusiers (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 377, 405-6, 533, 545). No figures are available for Shah T®ahma@sb I's reign, yet it is clear that the musketeer corps continued to be active, frequently taking part in campaigns and in the defense of fortresses (¿AÚlama@ra@-ye ˆa@h T®ahma@sb, pp. 64, 78, 123, 157, 181, 193, 204-5, 272, 280, 297, 314, 329, 332, 335, 341, 357, 369, 376-77). By the mid-17th century, observers put the number of musketeers in the Safavid army at 8,000 to 10,000 (Tavernier, I, p. 659) to 12,000 men (Chardin, V, p. 305; Tavernier noted that in times of need, their number could rise to 50,000)." (an article by Rudi Matthee about the history of firearms in Iran) rand

25th September 2007, 05:21 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Two copies are up for sale at AbeBooks, but as few of us can read old Portuguese, the pictures Fernando have provided us with is far better than what we had before – nothing like this. The poor elephant is a beauty – in those days, elephants really had to work hard for a living. I have had to change some of my believes, like the spear shown on plate XXXVII. I would

25th September 2007, 10:09 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Portuguese in Asia Hi Rand Here are some interesting references, written in english, with lots of action. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...ect01to03.html regards fernando

28th September 2007, 10:10 AM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	PDF Files. It looks like i have managed,with help from a coleague, to reformat and transform all the images into three part PDF files. I tested the thing on my own mailbox ant they seem to be sendable. Each image size is 1020x768,which is already larger than the condensed ones in the book,although quite clear ... i don´t remember the real size of these folios, the book is at home and i am not there. Somebody please "volunteer" to accept these pictures and give me an email adress, so that i can try if it works. Thanks and regards. fernando

19th September 2007, 04:56 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, I have read your PM, and sent you a mail - thank you very much. All the best Jens

20th September 2007, 01:34 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip The book had 1500 copies printed, and is actualy sold out. I am emailing you the legends translation right now. The CD will follow by mail. The war elephant will take a bit longer, due to its load . I will see if the support texts from the period include arms and armoury quotations Regards fernando

25th September 2007, 08:20 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando great pictures....very interesting topic, thanks for posting Regards David