Help with Keris ID and information

mmontoro · 8th March 2005, 05:28 PM

Hi,

I've had this piece for some time and am fond of it, but don't recognize it as a common type and lack the reference books to locate a similar example. I would be grateful for any information as to the type, origin, etc. Also, I wonder if the hilt is original and normally associated with this style of blade or someone's functional replacement. Thanks.

Conogre · 8th March 2005, 05:44 PM

Can I ask what the dimensions are?
It appears to be a modern version of the Moro kris or Sanduko stripped of all of the traditional "bells and whistles" down to it's bare essense.
The first word that pops to mind,of course, is "tourist", but I suspect that this was probably made for use in silat or martial arts training, thus eliminating the potential for damage to an often valuable sword.
It could be "dressed up" with a correct hilt, ferrule and such to give it a more traditional appearance, if you so desired, but the funny part is, made into a stripped down weapon, it STILL looks like it could be a mean little puppy.
Mike

mmontoro · 8th March 2005, 06:17 PM

The blade is 13.5" (34.3 cm) and the overall length is approximately 17.75" (45 cm). While it has a broad blade and some proportional similarity in the gangya area, I don't believe it is Moro. The blade is substantial and sharp and has some age. I haven't had the chance to etch it, but am optimistic.

Raja Muda · 9th March 2005, 03:57 AM

Hi,

I don't think this is a Moro piece. I would lean heavily in favour or Malay or Sumatran. At first glance, it could be a straight variant of Keris Melela, with those wide fullers. I think the Javanese style ukiran is all wrong. Why not try and fix it with a kerdas type hulu and we'll take another look at it again

John · 9th March 2005, 06:45 AM

From a thread in the archives (Paul's collection), keris 14 looks identical, except for some obvious difference at the base of blade.

http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~pfrandes/

For ease of reference;

Raja Muda · 9th March 2005, 09:10 AM

Yep, exactly what I was thinking of John. But take a close look at mmontoro's keris and compare it with Paul's. There's no picetan and sogokan.

rasdan · 9th March 2005, 10:01 AM

I think mmontoro's keris does have a picitan and the sogokan runs from the so-soran to the tip.

BluErf · 9th March 2005, 01:49 PM

Just when we think we have seen everything, something weird pops up.

I have a feeling this is a Riau Bugis keris blade, or a S. Malay Bugis keris blade. Its different in aesthetics from the N Malay blades which tend towards "long and lanky" forms (like Paul's keris). The fullers are unusual...

rahman · 9th March 2005, 02:20 PM

Take another look at Paul's keris -- it has a pinggang (waist). It tapers in and then flares out. There's a certain grace to it, as in most other keris.

That's what threw me off with mmontoro's keris. It flares out suddenly (almost like a sundang). This is either a hybrid or someone's bad idea of a copycat sundang. But at 13.5ins, it's too short to be sundang.

mmontoro · 9th March 2005, 04:33 PM

Thank you to everyone for your comments. If I may ask a few questions, please forgive my ignorance regarding keris and appropriate terminology.

What does the term, "Malela" mean? Is it a reference to geographical orgin or blade type?

Is is a correct assumption that the hulu it is wearing does not belong to this type? If so, which type is correct and where might I get one and the correct pendongkok?

Is this style of blade considered more for fighting than one with luk?

Does this type usually have pamor?

Thanks, again.

John · 10th March 2005, 02:53 AM

Mmontoro,

You could see some discussions on Malela blades plus examples at the folowing earlier threads which may answer some of your questions. Broadly, the main characteristics are the pair of fullers along the blade plus that the blades do not have pamor.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000969.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000978.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

BluErf does make an interesting point in that the finer aesthetics of N Malayan pieces do not seem to be evident on the piece in question. Put this piece amongst a group of N Malayan Malelas, I think it's not difficult for one to pick it up as an odd one. The ada-ada (spine) is also broader but at least for now I think the piece looks nearest to a Malela.

But as always I defer to the more knowledgeable members and learning along the way...

mmontoro · 10th March 2005, 05:34 AM

Thanks, John, for those references to previous threads. In the second thread there was a photo that I thought looked similar except for the greneng(?) or fretwork. This is the photo:

DAHenkel · 10th March 2005, 04:00 PM

I may be wrong on this but there is something very "off" about this keris. It smacks of a - granted, very skilled and experienced - Western knife-maker's attempt to make a keris. The blade has funny garap and the hilt is also very "generic" looking. No offense, but I have my doubts about this one.

mmontoro · 10th March 2005, 04:58 PM

Wow! Now this is getting interesting. Certainly no offense taken and yours was one of the opinions that I was most interested in. There seems (to my admittedly inexperienced eye) to be some age to the blade in the form of darkened, oxidized pitting near the edges of the blade. I tried to show this in the images in this post. The images are oriented vertically so they would fit on the screen without having to be reduced, so please bear with having to scroll a little. If this is genuine age, and not artificial, would someone have wanted to make a copy at some time in the past? Please feel free to pick this piece apart without hurting my feelings as I am interested in learning about it. I got it on eBay several years ago and did not pay much. I believe Adni was another bidder on it.

8th March 2005, 05:28 PM	#1
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Help with Keris ID and information Hi, I've had this piece for some time and am fond of it, but don't recognize it as a common type and lack the reference books to locate a similar example. I would be grateful for any information as to the type, origin, etc. Also, I wonder if the hilt is original and normally associated with this style of blade or someone's functional replacement. Thanks.

9th March 2005, 03:57 AM	#4
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Keris Melela Hi, I don't think this is a Moro piece. I would lean heavily in favour or Malay or Sumatran. At first glance, it could be a straight variant of Keris Melela, with those wide fullers. I think the Javanese style ukiran is all wrong. Why not try and fix it with a kerdas type hulu and we'll take another look at it again

9th March 2005, 06:45 AM	#5
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Looks a Keris Malela to me too. From a thread in the archives (Paul's collection), keris 14 looks identical, except for some obvious difference at the base of blade. http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~pfrandes/ For ease of reference;

9th March 2005, 09:10 AM	#6
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Melela Yep, exactly what I was thinking of John. But take a close look at mmontoro's keris and compare it with Paul's. There's no picetan and sogokan.

9th March 2005, 04:33 PM	#10
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Thanks and a couple of questions Thank you to everyone for your comments. If I may ask a few questions, please forgive my ignorance regarding keris and appropriate terminology. What does the term, "Malela" mean? Is it a reference to geographical orgin or blade type? Is is a correct assumption that the hulu it is wearing does not belong to this type? If so, which type is correct and where might I get one and the correct pendongkok? Is this style of blade considered more for fighting than one with luk? Does this type usually have pamor? Thanks, again.

8th March 2005, 05:44 PM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Can I ask what the dimensions are? It appears to be a modern version of the Moro kris or Sanduko stripped of all of the traditional "bells and whistles" down to it's bare essense. The first word that pops to mind,of course, is "tourist", but I suspect that this was probably made for use in silat or martial arts training, thus eliminating the potential for damage to an often valuable sword. It could be "dressed up" with a correct hilt, ferrule and such to give it a more traditional appearance, if you so desired, but the funny part is, made into a stripped down weapon, it STILL looks like it could be a mean little puppy. Mike

8th March 2005, 06:17 PM	#3
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	The blade is 13.5" (34.3 cm) and the overall length is approximately 17.75" (45 cm). While it has a broad blade and some proportional similarity in the gangya area, I don't believe it is Moro. The blade is substantial and sharp and has some age. I haven't had the chance to etch it, but am optimistic.

9th March 2005, 10:01 AM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I think mmontoro's keris does have a picitan and the sogokan runs from the so-soran to the tip.

9th March 2005, 01:49 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just when we think we have seen everything, something weird pops up. I have a feeling this is a Riau Bugis keris blade, or a S. Malay Bugis keris blade. Its different in aesthetics from the N Malay blades which tend towards "long and lanky" forms (like Paul's keris). The fullers are unusual...

9th March 2005, 02:20 PM	#9
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Take another look at Paul's keris -- it has a pinggang (waist). It tapers in and then flares out. There's a certain grace to it, as in most other keris. That's what threw me off with mmontoro's keris. It flares out suddenly (almost like a sundang). This is either a hybrid or someone's bad idea of a copycat sundang. But at 13.5ins, it's too short to be sundang.

10th March 2005, 02:53 AM	#11
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Mmontoro, You could see some discussions on Malela blades plus examples at the folowing earlier threads which may answer some of your questions. Broadly, the main characteristics are the pair of fullers along the blade plus that the blades do not have pamor. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000969.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000978.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html BluErf does make an interesting point in that the finer aesthetics of N Malayan pieces do not seem to be evident on the piece in question. Put this piece amongst a group of N Malayan Malelas, I think it's not difficult for one to pick it up as an odd one. The ada-ada (spine) is also broader but at least for now I think the piece looks nearest to a Malela. But as always I defer to the more knowledgeable members and learning along the way...

10th March 2005, 05:34 AM	#12
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Thanks, John, for those references to previous threads. In the second thread there was a photo that I thought looked similar except for the greneng(?) or fretwork. This is the photo:

10th March 2005, 04:00 PM	#13
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	I may be wrong on this but there is something very "off" about this keris. It smacks of a - granted, very skilled and experienced - Western knife-maker's attempt to make a keris. The blade has funny garap and the hilt is also very "generic" looking. No offense, but I have my doubts about this one.

10th March 2005, 04:58 PM	#14
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Wow! Now this is getting interesting. Certainly no offense taken and yours was one of the opinions that I was most interested in. There seems (to my admittedly inexperienced eye) to be some age to the blade in the form of darkened, oxidized pitting near the edges of the blade. I tried to show this in the images in this post. The images are oriented vertically so they would fit on the screen without having to be reduced, so please bear with having to scroll a little. If this is genuine age, and not artificial, would someone have wanted to make a copy at some time in the past? Please feel free to pick this piece apart without hurting my feelings as I am interested in learning about it. I got it on eBay several years ago and did not pay much. I believe Adni was another bidder on it.