Chinese sword: real or fake?

Tatyana Dianova · 11th June 2007, 02:50 PM

Thank you all for replies! Now about etching: after the blade was polished several times with 600 grit wet paper (with oil) I have used 75 % Phosphoric Acid. After 5-10 minutes of etching the blade was ready. Then again a very light polish (with 1000 paper and oil) was applied to make the blade surface shining and transparent. The Damascus steel is now like a 3D picture ( if you see, what I mean) and really beautiful, but it is impossible to show on the pictures. To make the "flashy "pictures above (to show better the steel pattern) I have used a very strong contrasting tool in Photoshop (I love Photoshop

), but in reality the pattern is seen only under correct light and angle and is subtle, like hada and hamon on Japanese swords. The picture nearest to reality is third from top, where you can see the whole sword.
The interesting feature to me is that the blade construction looks like on old Indonesian Keris: it has a core steel (it is easy to see near the cutting edge) which is covered by the layers of the Damascus Steel. Maybe it is the same as inserted edge that the Marc talks about. And about Damascus pattern and the sword itself (its origin, name and age) I would like to hear some replies from specialists too, because that was really the theme of this thread. To me it looks and feels like a real old sword, which has seen some use during its life

(see description above)

Bill M · 11th June 2007, 04:37 PM

Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched?

Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items.

Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

josh stout · 11th June 2007, 06:10 PM

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one.

As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me.

Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type.
Josh

josh stout · 11th June 2007, 06:18 PM

OK, I looked some more and see what looks like a dip in the blade edge as if damage had been ground away. This may be an older blade put together in the late 19th C or early 20th C with new fittings and scabbard. This could explain the general feeling that some seem to have that there is something slightly strange. I still think the fittings have some age, but there is a certain hurried look to the fittings that does not match the quality of the blade. All in all one of the finest blades I have seen with fittings that are not quite up to the same standard.
Josh

Tatyana Dianova · 11th June 2007, 09:02 PM

Thank you very much, Josh, for your explanation. Yes, the blade has some battle damage: some nicks from sword blows on the cutting edge and on the back of the blade, as well as several dips (seems like earlier nicks were sharpened / removed).
The most funny thing about this sword is that I even did not know that it has a Damascus blade when I was buying it - so rusty it was! But the Damascus pattern is so bold that it was good visible immediately after the active surface rust was removed. And during polishing it was more and more evident even without etching.

Bill M · 11th June 2007, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one. Josh

Sure Josh. Here are examples on some of my dao and a jian. The dao have old or original fittings. The jian has Long Quan fittings that are careful copies of the originals.

All these pieces were either bought from Phillip Tom or recommended by him.

He told me there were periods where the holes were punched, like the half-moon or drilled. I really can't remember which is better or if there really is a huge difference in the age or quality. It seems he liked the half-moon. But it may also be that he liked the half-moon for a particular period. I wish I could be more certain.

Incidentally the one with the ball pommel has the yellow grip cord indicating it belonged to a royal family member. That one is a a goose quill. The others are willow leaf and the ox-tail.

spiral · 11th June 2007, 09:17 PM

That blade speaks of true quality to me. its fittings look handled, not sharp & new.

To my eye Its leaves the fakes the Chinese have been selling to westerners for the last 100 years in the dust.

Spiral

Tatyana Dianova · 12th June 2007, 10:41 AM

Thankyou Bill for sharing pictures of these wonderful swords with us! Can you please post also the whole sword pictures? Does any of them has Damascus blade?

Bill M · 12th June 2007, 11:49 AM

Thank you Tatyana. I will post more pictures soon. They all have patterned blades. San mei construction.

josh stout · 15th June 2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Sure Josh. Here are examples on some of my dao and a jian. The dao have old or original fittings. The jian has Long Quan fittings that are careful copies of the originals.

All these pieces were either bought from Phillip Tom or recommended by him.

He told me there were periods where the holes were punched, like the half-moon or drilled. I really can't remember which is better or if there really is a huge difference in the age or quality. It seems he liked the half-moon. But it may also be that he liked the half-moon for a particular period. I wish I could be more certain.

Ah, now I see what you mean. Thank you. I think you are correct that the round holes are later, but I think you would need a few things to go on before giving a date.
Josh

Philip · 16th June 2007, 06:58 AM

I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in.

The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration.

The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

Philip · 16th June 2007, 07:02 AM

There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro.

However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only.

Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

16th June 2007, 06:58 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	comments on fittings I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in. The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration. The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

16th June 2007, 07:02 AM	#12
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	horse tooth lamination made today There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro. However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only. Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

11th June 2007, 02:50 PM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 689	Thank you all for replies! Now about etching: after the blade was polished several times with 600 grit wet paper (with oil) I have used 75 % Phosphoric Acid. After 5-10 minutes of etching the blade was ready. Then again a very light polish (with 1000 paper and oil) was applied to make the blade surface shining and transparent. The Damascus steel is now like a 3D picture ( if you see, what I mean) and really beautiful, but it is impossible to show on the pictures. To make the "flashy "pictures above (to show better the steel pattern) I have used a very strong contrasting tool in Photoshop (I love Photoshop ), but in reality the pattern is seen only under correct light and angle and is subtle, like hada and hamon on Japanese swords. The picture nearest to reality is third from top, where you can see the whole sword. The interesting feature to me is that the blade construction looks like on old Indonesian Keris: it has a core steel (it is easy to see near the cutting edge) which is covered by the layers of the Damascus Steel. Maybe it is the same as inserted edge that the Marc talks about. And about Damascus pattern and the sword itself (its origin, name and age) I would like to hear some replies from specialists too, because that was really the theme of this thread. To me it looks and feels like a real old sword, which has seen some use during its life (see description above)

11th June 2007, 04:37 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched? Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items. Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

11th June 2007, 06:10 PM	#3
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one. As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me. Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type. Josh

11th June 2007, 06:18 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	OK, I looked some more and see what looks like a dip in the blade edge as if damage had been ground away. This may be an older blade put together in the late 19th C or early 20th C with new fittings and scabbard. This could explain the general feeling that some seem to have that there is something slightly strange. I still think the fittings have some age, but there is a certain hurried look to the fittings that does not match the quality of the blade. All in all one of the finest blades I have seen with fittings that are not quite up to the same standard. Josh

11th June 2007, 09:02 PM	#5
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 689	Thank you very much, Josh, for your explanation. Yes, the blade has some battle damage: some nicks from sword blows on the cutting edge and on the back of the blade, as well as several dips (seems like earlier nicks were sharpened / removed). The most funny thing about this sword is that I even did not know that it has a Damascus blade when I was buying it - so rusty it was! But the Damascus pattern is so bold that it was good visible immediately after the active surface rust was removed. And during polishing it was more and more evident even without etching.

11th June 2007, 09:17 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	That blade speaks of true quality to me. its fittings look handled, not sharp & new. To my eye Its leaves the fakes the Chinese have been selling to westerners for the last 100 years in the dust. Spiral

12th June 2007, 10:41 AM	#8
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 689	Thankyou Bill for sharing pictures of these wonderful swords with us! Can you please post also the whole sword pictures? Does any of them has Damascus blade?

12th June 2007, 11:49 AM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thank you Tatyana. I will post more pictures soon. They all have patterned blades. San mei construction.