khayber Sword

Bill M · 23rd May 2007, 12:03 PM

This is my first one of these. I have heard them called "massive" and the word is descriptive. 33" long. Remains of koftgari.

I like two basic categories of swords. High end ceremonial and "users."

This is a "user." It has a presence that does not really come across in the pictures. I feel certain that this one has been in combat.

Your comments? I know nothing about these swords.

kronckew · 23rd May 2007, 03:12 PM

i have a similar one without the decoration and a plain wood grip - the moment you pick it up you know it's the real thing, made for battle and not for decoration.

it sings - the pathan who carried mine may have owed fealty to the one who carried yours

mine didn't come with a scabbard tho, i''l have to find one or have one made. always nice to see pics of them as a complete weapons system.

i see your scabbard comes with the original late 19th c. pathan electricians tape . you may want to replace that with something more modern, like leather......

i wonder if t.sisco does khybers at the sarki shop......

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd May 2007, 03:46 PM

If you have not, then try to make a ’search’, and you will see there are quite a number of threads. The blades are mostly alike, some decorated and some not, but notice the very different hilt forms.

ariel · 23rd May 2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

If you have not, then try to make a ’search’, and you will see there are quite a number of threads. The blades are mostly alike, some decorated and some not, but notice the very different hilt forms.

That what interested me for quite some time. Indeed, the handles are quite different and fall into 3 types; what we see on the example here ( rounded pommel), the ones with a lobulated pommel and the ones with no pommel at all ( more like kard).
Is there any tribal/geographical connection?

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2007, 04:35 PM

Excellent observation Jens! It does indeed seem that most variation is in the hilts, and as Ariel has suggested, quite possibly tribal or regional variation.
Kronckew, LOL!

very good observation on the 19th c. Pathan electricians tape!!!!

On the mounts, I notice the familiar circled dot motif that is typically seen on weapons from Afghanistan and surrounding regions. From what I understand, this is a simple, but quite ancient geometric motif that is often found in these regions. Can anyone elaborate more on this motif? I have seen the same on lohars as well as buzkhashi whips.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd May 2007, 05:13 PM

Yes Ariel, but it should also be remembered that there are variation of the different types. I think the different types come from different clans, although I can't prove it.
Yes Jim, the circle decoration is interesting, and as you mention, also seen on other Afghan weapons.
Jens

spiral · 23rd May 2007, 06:01 PM

Nice piece Bill, Given the walrus hilt & clearly original koftgari I would be surprised if it isnt wootz.

Spiral

Rick · 23rd May 2007, 06:17 PM

A fancy piece , just closed.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

ward · 23rd May 2007, 08:49 PM

The circle motif are eyes of god basically coming from pre islam birds looking down at people. from the construction I would date to very end of 19th century

Montino Bourbon · 24th May 2007, 01:29 AM

Is done (IMHO) with a drill bit that makes a hole the diameter of the circle. the old bits have a guide tip in the center, like a modern Forstner bit.

Bill M · 24th May 2007, 02:16 AM

These circular patterns are common to several cultures. I would guess that with a compass-like tool, or a drill bit similar to a Forstner bit.

I have these patterns on an Afircan Lega/Wega ivory carving and a bichwa.

There is an interesting thread about these swords comparing them to some other weapons.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=khayber

According to Artzi, mine could be from Persia / Mideast area because it has walrus grips. Here is a pciture from that thread showing a khayber with koftgari. The koftgari traces on mine could indicate it once had a blade decorated like Artzi's

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2007, 03:08 PM

Thanks very much Bill, Ward, Montino and Jens for the observations on the circle motif. While the geometric symbol is obviously so simple, it really does seem consistant in these regions, although it does occur in other spheres as well.

I agree with Jens, I think there may well be a tribal or clan association with the varied hilts on the Khybers. I think the wider spectrum of Afghan weapons such as the shashkas and shamshirs may be more regionally oriented. What say you all?

Ariel, could you possibly say more on the hilt types you have observed?

all the best,
Jim

Bill M · 24th May 2007, 08:59 PM

On the question of wootz. I am not versed with staining, and want to do this right. I have heard that some stains will harm koftgari. Is there any factual basis?

Lew · 24th May 2007, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

On the question of wootz. I am not versed with staining, and want to do this right. I have heard that some stains will harm koftgari. Is there any factual basis?

Bill

Are you going to try to etch your sword in the first photo? I do not think it's wootz unless you see something that's not pictured? I would just leave it be if there is no real sign of the wootz pattern.

Lew

Bill M · 28th May 2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Bill, Ward, Montino and Jens for the observations on the circle motif. While the geometric symbol is obviously so simple, it really does seem consistant in these regions, although it does occur in other spheres as well.

all the best,
Jim

Here are a few circle patterns from other areas.

Lega/Wega ivory statue (6" high) (Liberia - South Africa)

Ivory handle dagger - possibly North Sudan

Sword original to this post -- removed 19th c electrical tape

derek · 8th June 2007, 06:45 PM

There was another interesting old thread about the marks found on many of the blades: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001999.html

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2007, 06:33 PM

In notes concerning the circle and dot motif there are suggestions that this decoration is sometimes found on inscribed objects of the civilization around Ellora c.6th c. India. A bone amulet c.3rd c. B.C. is noted as Sonkh, Mathura and is further described as interpreted to symbolize a shield (termed 'd.ha......uh not dha guys !

With connotation as a protective device such as a shield, it is suggested that its appearance on an amulet for protection would seem plausible.
Not a great deal of detail, but interesting concept.

Best regards,
Jim

23rd May 2007, 12:03 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	khayber Sword This is my first one of these. I have heard them called "massive" and the word is descriptive. 33" long. Remains of koftgari. I like two basic categories of swords. High end ceremonial and "users." This is a "user." It has a presence that does not really come across in the pictures. I feel certain that this one has been in combat. Your comments? I know nothing about these swords. Attached Images

24th May 2007, 01:29 AM	#10
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	the circle motif... Is done (IMHO) with a drill bit that makes a hole the diameter of the circle. the old bits have a guide tip in the center, like a modern Forstner bit.

24th May 2007, 02:16 AM	#11
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	These circular patterns are common to several cultures. I would guess that with a compass-like tool, or a drill bit similar to a Forstner bit. I have these patterns on an Afircan Lega/Wega ivory carving and a bichwa. There is an interesting thread about these swords comparing them to some other weapons. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=khayber According to Artzi, mine could be from Persia / Mideast area because it has walrus grips. Here is a pciture from that thread showing a khayber with koftgari. The koftgari traces on mine could indicate it once had a blade decorated like Artzi's Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 24th May 2007 at 03:12 PM.

23rd May 2007, 03:12 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	i have a similar one without the decoration and a plain wood grip - the moment you pick it up you know it's the real thing, made for battle and not for decoration. it sings - the pathan who carried mine may have owed fealty to the one who carried yours mine didn't come with a scabbard tho, i''l have to find one or have one made. always nice to see pics of them as a complete weapons system. i see your scabbard comes with the original late 19th c. pathan electricians tape . you may want to replace that with something more modern, like leather...... i wonder if t.sisco does khybers at the sarki shop......

23rd May 2007, 03:46 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	If you have not, then try to make a ’search’, and you will see there are quite a number of threads. The blades are mostly alike, some decorated and some not, but notice the very different hilt forms.

23rd May 2007, 04:35 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Excellent observation Jens! It does indeed seem that most variation is in the hilts, and as Ariel has suggested, quite possibly tribal or regional variation. Kronckew, LOL! very good observation on the 19th c. Pathan electricians tape!!!! On the mounts, I notice the familiar circled dot motif that is typically seen on weapons from Afghanistan and surrounding regions. From what I understand, this is a simple, but quite ancient geometric motif that is often found in these regions. Can anyone elaborate more on this motif? I have seen the same on lohars as well as buzkhashi whips. All the best, Jim

23rd May 2007, 05:13 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Ariel, but it should also be remembered that there are variation of the different types. I think the different types come from different clans, although I can't prove it. Yes Jim, the circle decoration is interesting, and as you mention, also seen on other Afghan weapons. Jens

23rd May 2007, 06:01 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice piece Bill, Given the walrus hilt & clearly original koftgari I would be surprised if it isnt wootz. Spiral

23rd May 2007, 06:17 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	A fancy piece , just closed. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

23rd May 2007, 08:49 PM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The circle motif are eyes of god basically coming from pre islam birds looking down at people. from the construction I would date to very end of 19th century

24th May 2007, 03:08 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thanks very much Bill, Ward, Montino and Jens for the observations on the circle motif. While the geometric symbol is obviously so simple, it really does seem consistant in these regions, although it does occur in other spheres as well. I agree with Jens, I think there may well be a tribal or clan association with the varied hilts on the Khybers. I think the wider spectrum of Afghan weapons such as the shashkas and shamshirs may be more regionally oriented. What say you all? Ariel, could you possibly say more on the hilt types you have observed? all the best, Jim

24th May 2007, 08:59 PM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	On the question of wootz. I am not versed with staining, and want to do this right. I have heard that some stains will harm koftgari. Is there any factual basis?

8th June 2007, 06:45 PM	#16
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	There was another interesting old thread about the marks found on many of the blades: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001999.html

9th June 2007, 06:33 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	In notes concerning the circle and dot motif there are suggestions that this decoration is sometimes found on inscribed objects of the civilization around Ellora c.6th c. India. A bone amulet c.3rd c. B.C. is noted as Sonkh, Mathura and is further described as interpreted to symbolize a shield (termed 'd.ha......uh not dha guys ! With connotation as a protective device such as a shield, it is suggested that its appearance on an amulet for protection would seem plausible. Not a great deal of detail, but interesting concept. Best regards, Jim