where in the Sahara?

Tim Simmons · 26th February 2005, 08:19 PM

This knife is not old but not new either showing signs of wear.Clearly from the Sahara.Overall length is 56cm.It is fully tempered and well made but the blade is not polished.A lot of work has gone into the making of the scabbard which has a spring clip to hold the knife rather like a bayonet scabbard,something I have not seen before in ethnographic pieces .Could this be ww2 influence?Some of you have travelled in the Sahara ,have you seen anything like this for sale or in use?Any help would be great.Tim

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Conogre · 26th February 2005, 08:42 PM

That's a beautiful piece, and a style that I've not seen before, making this another thread to follow.
One thing that I have noted is that there seems to be a fondness for long thin blades, particularly in Morocco, such as the flyssa, that seems distincly dissimilar to the rest of the area.
Thanks for posting the photo.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2005, 04:35 AM

Hello Tim,
You have made some very good observations already on this piece, which does seem to have certain Saharan characteristics, primarily in the geometric blade motif. This is one of those items that I feel certain to have seen somewhere, but cannot recall or find the notes. I agree that there is potentially some good potential for this thread as a number of members have travelled in the Sahara, including especially our own 'Indiana Jones'..Lee !!

who has had some terrific adventures there.

This does seem to be post WWII, and I think your note on the possibility of military influence possibly influencing the spring-catch is well placed. I am not that familiar with military bayonets or combat knives, but clearly many types from major powers were well known throughout the Sahara.

In referencing similarities for hilt and mounts, these 'rondel' type hilts with dual discs seem to occur in knives and some swords in Sierra Leone and possibly other contiguous West African regions (see Spring, p.47). The swords with these type hilts seem to be mounted with kaskara type blades, suggesting these may occur much farther east, possibly Nigeria or other far western Sudan regions where trade routes carried these blades.

The incised markings in the blade seem similar to geometric motif found on edged weapons that were described by Ian in posts several years ago which were possibly from Mossi tribes. Ian noted (11-24-02) that elements of these tribes are found in Burkina Faso (Upper Volta) as well as Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire. It seems like the opposed semi-circles near the forte on the blade may be interpretations of the venerable Genoan 'sickle marks' often found on trade blades from previous centuries.

I found another interesting comparison for the distinct bulbous tip for the scabbard in Spring (op.cit.p.135) in Shona short sword scabbards, although geographically any direct influence does not seem plausible. Just a note for comparison. In the 'koumyya' of Morocco this feature occurs, as on a number of other scabbards, with influence likely from the bulb found on Arab janbiyya scabbard tips and termed 'thum' .

Mike's note on the flyssa is well noted as the geometric motif that is so distinctly prevalent throughout the Sahara and in Berber material culture seems to associate with variations that occur as well in many locations.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 27th February 2005, 11:34 AM

Thank you gentlemen. The influences on this knife seem to come from N,S,E and West, I favour the SW something about the engraving.Could the scabbard clip point to a full nomadic life, tavelling on animals and the movement of, making sense of the clip?Thanks Tim

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 01:13 AM

Honestly, THIS piece came to mind when I saw yours, although clearly unrelated, except for the N. African origin.
For whatever it's worth, I had this piece for almost three years before I finally ID'd it, and when I did I felt entirely foolish!
It was the botton on the tip of the scabbard that gave it away.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2005, 02:52 AM

Mike,
I think what you have there is a Moroccan s'boula, likely from Atlas regions of Morocco. These long thin blades, as you have noted, were keenly favored by Berbers in Saharan regions. The opposed carrying rings in baldric fashion are the same as present on the well known koummya daggers also of these regions.
In viewing caravan routes mapped through the Sahara, it is not difficult to imagine the diffusion of these weapons to the south and east where local versions might be fashioned, although with same general characteristics.
Still uncertain of the scabbard/hilt motif, which tribal group may have favored this decoration, but still favor the Mossi by the blade geometric decoration for Tims example.

How could you own this for three years before ID ? I'd go nuts with curiosity !!

. Your example is one of the nicer ones with the engraved handle.
Thanks for posting this!
All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 03:12 AM

LOL! When I say "identified" I'd pretty well written it off as you described (although MUCH more general **grin**) although I was always mystified by the T-spine as is found in khyber knives and chooras until I noticed that the ball on the end was steel on the umpteenth cleaning and finally looked at the throat as well.....yep, steel and VERY distinctive!!!
It's a French bayonet from the 1860's that's been rehilted and the scabbard wrapped in nicely tooled brass as is the tribal fashion.
Although there's no way to be certain, I suspect that one of the Legionaires didn't make it back from patrol and this is his weapon in another incarnation, somewhat like the choora/karud in another current thread.
I didn't feel too bad about it though, as I'd bought it from one of the better known and larger Brittish dealers who'd also missed the give aways, as an "unknown African dagger".
The button is what made me scritinize the piece that started this thread so closely to see if there was any chance of a similar origin, but this doesn't seem to be the case without a minute inspection.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2005, 06:12 AM

Hi Mike,
Its like you said on the other thread, these pieces in 2nd or third incarnation are old warriors with stories to tell!! (like us

!!
Every time I see these Saharan weapons reincarnated with French blades I think of that cartoon 'the lost patrol'

I think I can really relate for some reason.
Yours dagger is really a nice one though. I found about these through Buttin when researching those nebulous 'Zanzibar' swords, which interestingly are usually found with these narrow bayonet blades. It was surprising to me to discover these were actually another version of these Moroccan daggers.
All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 07:36 AM

Thank you again for the information, which is more appreciated than you realize, but it raises, to me at least, another question that I've never seen answered beyond evasion.
With weapons scavenging and re-using going back as far as recorded history, doesn't that in fact make this an s'boula with a French blade?
Captured pieces were often thought to contain the essense of the enemy, sometimes even including extraodinary courage and bravery, thus held in higher esteem than a locally smithed weapon and when it's converted to a form of the local favorite weapon to boot, then the transmogrification seems logical and complete to me.
Then again, I've never been accused of linnear thinking anyways! **grin**
Thank you again,
Mike

Tim Simmons · 28th February 2005, 06:49 PM

The French bayonets and swords are particularly nice, and have influenced many countries weaponry most notably 19th century USA and Russia.Still waiting to hear from our travellers.Tim

Tim Simmons · 28th February 2005, 07:48 PM

While N Africa seems to be on a roll, thought I would post this.Tim

Yannis · 28th February 2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

It's a French bayonet from the 1860's that's been rehilted and the scabbard wrapped in nicely tooled brass as is the tribal fashion.

It must be earlier. As I know French bayonets of 1860's had the form of yataghan.

Tim Simmons · 28th February 2005, 08:21 PM

This one is dated 1876 and made for the Gras rife.Tim[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Conogre · 1st March 2005, 02:34 AM

The one Tim posted appears to be a nearly classic Moroccan Khodme, with just a few minor exceptions, such as lacking the hole in the center of the hilt that usually had a leather lanyard passed through it, the tip more pointed than most and lacking the string or gut usually tightly wound around the scabbard throat.
The Khodme, with it's peculiar razor sharpening that almost looks hollow ground is another style that seems to have bloomed into a tourist favorite with a lot of variations appearing lately, usually with the quality declining.
these drove me nuts for a considerable time until Ian finally found them.
Likewise, the gras bayonet is the original incarnation of the s'boula.
Mike

26th February 2005, 08:19 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	where in the Sahara? This knife is not old but not new either showing signs of wear.Clearly from the Sahara.Overall length is 56cm.It is fully tempered and well made but the blade is not polished.A lot of work has gone into the making of the scabbard which has a spring clip to hold the knife rather like a bayonet scabbard,something I have not seen before in ethnographic pieces .Could this be ww2 influence?Some of you have travelled in the Sahara ,have you seen anything like this for sale or in use?Any help would be great.Tim [IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

28th February 2005, 01:13 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Honestly, THIS piece came to mind when I saw yours, although clearly unrelated, except for the N. African origin. For whatever it's worth, I had this piece for almost three years before I finally ID'd it, and when I did I felt entirely foolish! It was the botton on the tip of the scabbard that gave it away. Mike Attached Images

28th February 2005, 07:48 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	While N Africa seems to be on a roll, thought I would post this.Tim Attached Images

28th February 2005, 08:21 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This one is dated 1876 and made for the Gras rife.Tim[IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

1st March 2005, 02:34 AM	#14
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	The one Tim posted appears to be a nearly classic Moroccan Khodme, with just a few minor exceptions, such as lacking the hole in the center of the hilt that usually had a leather lanyard passed through it, the tip more pointed than most and lacking the string or gut usually tightly wound around the scabbard throat. The Khodme, with it's peculiar razor sharpening that almost looks hollow ground is another style that seems to have bloomed into a tourist favorite with a lot of variations appearing lately, usually with the quality declining. these drove me nuts for a considerable time until Ian finally found them. Likewise, the gras bayonet is the original incarnation of the s'boula. Mike Attached Images

26th February 2005, 08:42 PM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That's a beautiful piece, and a style that I've not seen before, making this another thread to follow. One thing that I have noted is that there seems to be a fondness for long thin blades, particularly in Morocco, such as the flyssa, that seems distincly dissimilar to the rest of the area. Thanks for posting the photo. Mike

27th February 2005, 04:35 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hello Tim, You have made some very good observations already on this piece, which does seem to have certain Saharan characteristics, primarily in the geometric blade motif. This is one of those items that I feel certain to have seen somewhere, but cannot recall or find the notes. I agree that there is potentially some good potential for this thread as a number of members have travelled in the Sahara, including especially our own 'Indiana Jones'..Lee !! who has had some terrific adventures there. This does seem to be post WWII, and I think your note on the possibility of military influence possibly influencing the spring-catch is well placed. I am not that familiar with military bayonets or combat knives, but clearly many types from major powers were well known throughout the Sahara. In referencing similarities for hilt and mounts, these 'rondel' type hilts with dual discs seem to occur in knives and some swords in Sierra Leone and possibly other contiguous West African regions (see Spring, p.47). The swords with these type hilts seem to be mounted with kaskara type blades, suggesting these may occur much farther east, possibly Nigeria or other far western Sudan regions where trade routes carried these blades. The incised markings in the blade seem similar to geometric motif found on edged weapons that were described by Ian in posts several years ago which were possibly from Mossi tribes. Ian noted (11-24-02) that elements of these tribes are found in Burkina Faso (Upper Volta) as well as Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire. It seems like the opposed semi-circles near the forte on the blade may be interpretations of the venerable Genoan 'sickle marks' often found on trade blades from previous centuries. I found another interesting comparison for the distinct bulbous tip for the scabbard in Spring (op.cit.p.135) in Shona short sword scabbards, although geographically any direct influence does not seem plausible. Just a note for comparison. In the 'koumyya' of Morocco this feature occurs, as on a number of other scabbards, with influence likely from the bulb found on Arab janbiyya scabbard tips and termed 'thum' . Mike's note on the flyssa is well noted as the geometric motif that is so distinctly prevalent throughout the Sahara and in Berber material culture seems to associate with variations that occur as well in many locations. Best regards, Jim

27th February 2005, 11:34 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thank you gentlemen. The influences on this knife seem to come from N,S,E and West, I favour the SW something about the engraving.Could the scabbard clip point to a full nomadic life, tavelling on animals and the movement of, making sense of the clip?Thanks Tim

28th February 2005, 02:52 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Mike, I think what you have there is a Moroccan s'boula, likely from Atlas regions of Morocco. These long thin blades, as you have noted, were keenly favored by Berbers in Saharan regions. The opposed carrying rings in baldric fashion are the same as present on the well known koummya daggers also of these regions. In viewing caravan routes mapped through the Sahara, it is not difficult to imagine the diffusion of these weapons to the south and east where local versions might be fashioned, although with same general characteristics. Still uncertain of the scabbard/hilt motif, which tribal group may have favored this decoration, but still favor the Mossi by the blade geometric decoration for Tims example. How could you own this for three years before ID ? I'd go nuts with curiosity !! . Your example is one of the nicer ones with the engraved handle. Thanks for posting this! All the best, Jim

28th February 2005, 03:12 AM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	LOL! When I say "identified" I'd pretty well written it off as you described (although MUCH more general grin) although I was always mystified by the T-spine as is found in khyber knives and chooras until I noticed that the ball on the end was steel on the umpteenth cleaning and finally looked at the throat as well.....yep, steel and VERY distinctive!!! It's a French bayonet from the 1860's that's been rehilted and the scabbard wrapped in nicely tooled brass as is the tribal fashion. Although there's no way to be certain, I suspect that one of the Legionaires didn't make it back from patrol and this is his weapon in another incarnation, somewhat like the choora/karud in another current thread. I didn't feel too bad about it though, as I'd bought it from one of the better known and larger Brittish dealers who'd also missed the give aways, as an "unknown African dagger". The button is what made me scritinize the piece that started this thread so closely to see if there was any chance of a similar origin, but this doesn't seem to be the case without a minute inspection. Mike

28th February 2005, 06:12 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Mike, Its like you said on the other thread, these pieces in 2nd or third incarnation are old warriors with stories to tell!! (like us !! Every time I see these Saharan weapons reincarnated with French blades I think of that cartoon 'the lost patrol' I think I can really relate for some reason. Yours dagger is really a nice one though. I found about these through Buttin when researching those nebulous 'Zanzibar' swords, which interestingly are usually found with these narrow bayonet blades. It was surprising to me to discover these were actually another version of these Moroccan daggers. All the best, Jim

28th February 2005, 07:36 AM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thank you again for the information, which is more appreciated than you realize, but it raises, to me at least, another question that I've never seen answered beyond evasion. With weapons scavenging and re-using going back as far as recorded history, doesn't that in fact make this an s'boula with a French blade? Captured pieces were often thought to contain the essense of the enemy, sometimes even including extraodinary courage and bravery, thus held in higher esteem than a locally smithed weapon and when it's converted to a form of the local favorite weapon to boot, then the transmogrification seems logical and complete to me. Then again, I've never been accused of linnear thinking anyways! grin Thank you again, Mike

28th February 2005, 06:49 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The French bayonets and swords are particularly nice, and have influenced many countries weaponry most notably 19th century USA and Russia.Still waiting to hear from our travellers.Tim