Walang Sinudhuk

[Marcokeris]

For all keris friend collectors
Is it possible to see a CLEAR photo (no a pen/pencil picture) of the "true" pamor Walang Sinudhuk? (I saw in internet a photo of pamor Sinudhukan but it seem a kind of gamelan pamor)
From a long time I ask about this pamor. The answer always is : "Ohh.. i's very difficult to find!"
Is this pamor REAL ? (OR IS A LEGEND?)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Marco,

I have never seen pamor walang sinudhuk. But this kind of pamor is written in Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional. It is difficult to say either legend or not.

I have a good story, according shape "umyang". I found several umyangs in traditional market "Beringharjo". Definitely, all of Umyang there were modifications.

And someday, I attended pametri widji gathering (usually this gathering is held on Sunday, the third week). At that time, the gathering was a little bit more special because of celebrating its anniversary. To me, one of guests brought a very special keris. Its shape was umyang, real umyang. Actually, for other person, there was no suprise. It's wellknown that there's a real umyang in the city. It belongs to that guest. After that, for me, umyang is not merely a legend.

Joke!
If you want to get/buy a Keris which has pamor walang sinudhuk. Just come to "a traditional market" and say what you want to at any price. One month later, go there and you will find it as you said. But, imho, just look at and dont ever buy it. Even if you search "pamor apollo" for 100 million rupiahs, it will be there soon, perhaps more than one.

[cahaya]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

...
...pamor Walang Sinudhuk-Is this pamor REAL ? (OR IS A LEGEND?)

Dear Marco,
pamor walang sinunduk is real not just a legend ,i belive ..

Manshur can help us...?to explain or showing keris with pamor walang sinunduk

[Mick]

Marco


We have had this topic on the Forum before, but the pictures have been dropped from the archives. Battara put the photos up so he may still have them and put them up again. Or maybe he knows who has the piece now and that person can put them up. If I remember correctly this was a very good representation of that pamor.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000533.html

If you have a copy of Tammens “De Kris 2” there is a good illustration on page 156.

[Jeff Pringle]

Scroll to bottom, keris on right? or is that the photo you already ran across?

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris1/blade.html

[Mick]

No Jeff


Battara's example was much better that that one. It was almost as distinct as the drawing in Tammen's book.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

Scroll to bottom, keris on right? or is that the photo you already ran across?

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris1/blade.html

Sorry Jeff: this pamor is Lar Gansir or G.kaniut or K. kinubah

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Mick

Marco


We have had this topic on the Forum before, but the pictures have been dropped from the archives. Battara put the photos up so he may still have them and put them up again. Or maybe he knows who has the piece now and that person can put them up. If I remember correctly this was a very good representation of that pamor.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000533.html

If you have a copy of Tammens “De Kris 2” there is a good illustration on page 156.

Sorry Mick but i have seen in other different books also some others pictures (never a photo) of W. Sinudhuk pamor: well! ...but they are all different!!!
Maybe the picture in beautiful book "Keris Jawa" is the right pamor..... but i would like to see a photo.

[Mick]

Marco

I may be getting a bit old, but I just leafed through "Keris Jawa" and did not see a sample of the pamor under discussion.

The illustration in Tammens is:

[Mick]

Marco

To continue (I can't figure out how to continue in the same post after adding the illustration), the photograph that Battara placed was a picture of a blade that he has held in his hand that was almost a dead ringer of this illustration.

That is if I remember it correctly. Battara where are you??

I have never seen a blade with this pamor.

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,

Would you mind if I send the illustration of Pamor Walang Sinudukan according to Mr Haryono Haryoguritno's "Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar"? Hopefully this illustration (page 208) will help you...

Ganjawulung

[Mans]

Hello dear all keris lovers,
Sugeng enjang Mas Cahya...

Just want to give my humble opinion regarding pamor Walang Sinuduk although me my self didn't have the keris with pamor Walang Sinuduk yet

Walang, in Jawanese term mean grasshopper or locust. Sinuduk (from source word "Suduk") mean skewer / to stick (hard to translate into English ). So, Walang Sinuduk mean the grasshopper which skewered with a stick.

Walang known as plant disease for farmer (Jawanese people known as agriculture societies). So, Walang Sinuduk has deep meaning that if we need to avoid the plant disease, so we must wipe the Walang at field (wet rice field). And if we can do that, we will get much appreciation or respect from communities of farmers. So that why this pamor believed that it can bring the owner to have more authorities/power --(which gave from communities).

Indeed that many book had illustrated the form of this pamor. but every book gave different illustrations of each other. So, which the illustraton nearest with the from of this pamor as it was
I think the form of this pamor should be similiar with the grasshopper which skewered.

Here I posted another illustrations from book "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo.
Also the keris collection of Mr. Budi Warsonugroho :
http://kerisbw.fotopic.net/c589653.html
http://kerisbw.fotopic.net/p16631016.html
nyuwun duko saderengipun Pak Budi, dhuwung panjenengan dalem agem contoh

Well, thats just my humble opinion

Salaam,
Manshur Hidayat

[Mick]

ganjawulung

Glad you put my nose on the right page. I must have had an "old moment" while leafing through the book. I remember the page but did not pick up on the pamor statement. This is possibly the best representation of this type of pamor around.


Marco

The representations of examples in "Keris Jawa" were taken from actual blades that were in Haryono's hands at one time or another. So this is about as near as you are going to get to a blade in hand.

[ganjawulung]

Yeah Mick,

It is easier to get "patterns" name in "damascus pamor". (On Damascus Steel, Leo S Figiel MD, 1991). Or even in Devin Thomas' website (the man who claim the most productive makers in damascus steel patterns). It is easier to imagine his patterns like: Banded Ladder, Firestorm, Reptilian, Spirograph, Sharkstooth, Turkish Twist, Raindrop, Fireball. And all are measurable: including how much dollar are the price of the patterns available per inch...

I think keris world must learn more from their "elder brother", the damascus steel world. I'd like to see keris books as good as Leo S Figiel's book..

[Jeff Pringle]

From a technical point of view, it is interesting to note that the pattern called out as "pamor walang sinunduk" on the page I posted and as illustrated in Tammens are composed of two twisted bars, twisted together, the latter two drawings from Haryoguritno/Harsrinuksmo seem to illustrate a pattern formed by removing metal from an untwisted bar. (although the p. 208 illustration is more or less ambiguous)


More photos, please

[Newsteel]

Originally Posted by Mans

Indeed that many book had illustrated the form of this pamor. but every book gave different illustrations of each other. So, which the illustraton nearest with the from of this pamor as it was

Bapak Hidayat,
I had the same thinking too after viewing all the pictures. All illustration differs. So do we choose to believe one pamor that look like a skewed locust??

[Marcokeris]

Mans, the pamor in your thread seems from bonang rineteng style. In the book "Pamor Keris" there is another pamor with the same pattern (I put picture below)

Here i put also some "pictures" that well illustrate the confusion in my brain.
one from M. Roeslan book "dunia keris pusaka"
one from a pamor's book by Wibatsu Harianto
another from A. Zazuli book

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Mans, the pamor in your thread seems from bonang rineteng style. In the book "Pamor Keris" there is another pamor with the same pattern (I put picture below)

Here i put also some "pictures" that well illustrate the confusion in my brain.
one from M. Roeslan book "dunia keris pusaka"
one from a pamor's book by Wibatsu Harianto
another from A. Zazuli book

Marco,
Let's try to straight things out (if possible).
1) Your 1st diagram, I don't think it's pamor pandan iras. Refer to Haryono's Keris Jawa, pg: 208, Fig: 4.32j = Walang Sinundukan, Fig: 4.32lk = Pandan Iras. It's different altogether, although the construction method are similar.

2) Your 2nd picture looks like pamor Gumbala Geni, to me... looks like "smoke rising", in abstract form.

3) and 4) pamor are same with the 1st pic. Same doesn't mean it's correct.
It just means that they copied from the same reference. Even the texts are the same, (Hidayat's eg from Pamor Keris, your 1st and 3rd pictures are the same)... (need to check what pamor is it, btw).

Imho, I guess these authors might have simply 'copy and paste' without much research.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by Newsteel

Bapak Hidayat,
I had the same thinking too after viewing all the pictures. All illustration differs. So do we choose to believe one pamor that look like a skewed locust??

Pak Newsteel ,
I think pamor keris must be definited, and we must choose the illustrated which nearest same with illustrated on the book (as Pakem). That because pamor of the keris easier to definited that Tangguh which has more complicated aspects to analysis the keris.

Here I posted my keris with has similiar pamor as illustrated on Pamor Keris book by Bambang Harsrinuksmo. But in the other book (Keris jawa ; Antara Mistik dan Nalar by Haryono Haryoguritno p; 121) called as Ilining Warih. So, do my keris can be called has pamor Walang Sinuduk

Marco, I think pamor Bonang Rinenteng or Bonang Sarenteng has different form with Walang Sinuduk (Keris with pamor Bonang Sarenteng : http://keris.fotopic.net/c1045903.html)

[Marcokeris]

Thanks Mans for your photo
I agrre with you

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

...
3) and 4) pamor are same with the 1st pic.

Thanks Hidayat, now we see an actual Walang Sinudhuk pamor form.

Btw, congrats on the publishing of your article in PAMOR magazine (No.3 March 2007), titled: "Keris Luk 9, Simbol Kesempurnaan Hidup" which literally translated to "Luk 9 Keris, Symbol of an Ideal Life" in the Philosophy section.

[Mans]

Hello Alamshah

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Thanks Hidayat, now we see an actual Walang Sinudhuk pamor form.

I expect that pamor of my keris is Walang Sinuduk..

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Btw, congrats on the publishing of your article in PAMOR magazine (No.3 March 2007), titled: "Keris Luk 9, Simbol Kesempurnaan Hidup" which literally translated to "Luk 9 Keris, Symbol of an Ideal Life" in the Philosophy section.

I thought that everybody (especially you) can write the artricel like me. That because what I wrote is a common opinion, especially regarding the Jawanese keris cultures.
Thank you too

[Marcokeris]

A pamor barbecue full of.....

[Marcokeris]

....ghosts!

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Mas Marco,

Wouwww... how wonderful it is. Where and when did you find it?
Congratulation.

warm salam,
OeS

[Marcokeris]

Thanks Raden
I found this keris in Yogya in summer 07.
The blade had another sarong - handle but the seller helped me to change them

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Mas Marco,

Sometimes, I think if the good ones go abroad, what's left at home.
Then, I rethink that perhaps it's better the good ones are in the right hand, no matter where they are.

Can I say there will be 'pusakadrain" in Jogja and Solo. I imitate the word "braindrain".

warm salam,
OeS

[Rick]

These too will re-appear in time no doubt .